The Crusades...

Jihads...

Thirty Years War...

The French Wars of Religion...

The current conflict in Iraq...

Many of the conflicts that have arose in our world throughout the years had some kind of link to religion. People live for conflict, we are a brutal being (just look at our own communities choice in music, many of our favorites bands sing about conflict, gore, death, blasphemy...but that is for another thread ). The easiest way to stir up the pot and cause dramatic controversy is to directly insult/attack something that someone else has a strong belief in, i.e. religion. The few of many examples I listed above can all be classified as 'Holy Wars," or direct conflicts dealing with religion. This is a subject that I have pondered over many times.

It is easy to say that Religion is the cause of these wars, but is it truly, or just merely a motivator. Anybody who goes into the history of these conflicts will find that it is usually an individual, or a group of individuals, that start the initial push towards violence in hopes of gaining a personal benefit or gain (whether it be more land, power, respect, etc) . And what better way to rally people behind your cause than with something they have such a devout belief in, religion.

It's a tough call for me. I am not a religious person, but I have took the time to study religions. I personally feel that religion plays a significant role in many wars, however; I do not directly correlate it with the cause of war. War is caused by people, which in turn use powerful beliefs/views (i.e. religion) to have people rally behind their cause. So I suppose my final thought of the situation is, no, religion does not cause the war. It is the people who are slanted/intelligent enough to psychologically abuse the people of as a whole, through religion, to join their cause and pick up arms, that cause the war...

The man starts it, the theology motivates it.

Written by [user id=30512] on 10.06.2008 at 21:04

Written by [user id=31891] on 10.06.2008 at 18:02

Written by Berfones on 10.06.2008 at 17:37

Israel is a religious country and don't let anyone tell you it isn't, not only the david's star in the flag, but the decluration of independence clearly state that this would be a Jewish country and will be open to any Jew who wishes to imegrate to it, everything here is about religion, you must learn bible and pass the final test if you want a diploma, you cannot merry in civil marriage, there are offices in the government specificly for religion, I am an atheist, and the moment someone here knows it they start to look at me funny and odd, this place is built on religion...

thanks for information.

@Aei Ontos PLZ READ,KNOW,BE SURE then start to teach to others.

Read it. Well, if an Israeli says it it must be true.

it doesn't invalidate your argument, even in that case just "they start to look at HIM funny and odd" NOT murder him or something.
you wrote: "Don't you know that Israel is the land in the middle east with the highest level of human rights?"
and yes, looking at the counties in middle-east, your assertion still stands. IMO
Bahrain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Palestin, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, UAE, Yemen.



AND

Quote:

but at least, dare to compare the situation in Israel with that in Iran. http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=iran

uhmmm...i know it all but never use it when arguing with an Iranian indivisual Cus the ppl (at least non-Muslims and even Moderate-Muslims) are victims NOT the tyrant...
too offensive if you ask me.

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 05.10.2008 at 18:34

one of the reasons Man created religion and maintained it over time was to have a subterfuge to depreciate others(enemies & dangers) and to gain confidence by the unity it offered the nation and also to have an ultimate reason to rule over masses. see, it has alot in common with war...it's not a simple causation, maybe a mutual effect, maybe a hand in hand relation.
but indeed more or less it has always been an excuse to start a war, from ancient wars to modern ones.

ok, so there maybe do exist some possibilities for argumentation. Still, you also seem to be quite vague here. I mean, what is meant by "religion" here in the first place? If it is defined as a belief system that is held over time to secure the unity and build certain us vs. them distinctions then maybe it could really be argued this kind of thinking would cause wars. But religion is hardly only that. And I know that you said "one of the reasons" but then for me the subject of this thread will still remain quite meaningless. It's almost hopeless to make any valid generalization over social phenomena, especially if the latter are so hard to define. Well, at least "religion" is.
Also, if this generalization had any real meaning, then it should be possible to define certain falsification conditions for the proposition in question. Concerning the latter, only condition I can think of would be an existence of a pacifistic religious denomination. We have them in todays world. Ergo - religion doesn't cause war

You also added that "it's not a simple causation, maybe a mutual effect, maybe a hand in hand relation". Very well, in that case I may easily agree with you because in social world anyhing can have effect on anything. And my point stillremains that the title of this thread is dumb as hell.

One more point. I really don't believe that in most of the time it can said that religion is made by men to control society. Firstly, most of the world religions (as you see, I am also unable to give a definition) beside the historical ones are not stricktly made, in the sense of a conscious decision. And although religions can be strong factors in maintaining social cohesion, I am not sure whether the religious "experts" have this as their primary motivation when keeping up the tradition. It surely can be sometimes but again, the possibility of generalizing doesn't seem believable .

Written by John Barleycorn on 05.10.2008 at 23:10

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 05.10.2008 at 18:34

one of the reasons Man created religion and maintained it over time was to have a subterfuge to depreciate others(enemies & dangers) and to gain confidence by the unity it offered the nation and also to have an ultimate reason to rule over masses. see, it has alot in common with war...it's not a simple causation, maybe a mutual effect, maybe a hand in hand relation.
but indeed more or less it has always been an excuse to start a war, from ancient wars to modern ones.

ok, so there maybe do exist some possibilities for argumentation. Still, you also seem to be quite vague here. I mean, what is meant by "religion" here in the first place? If it is defined as a belief system that is held over time to secure the unity and build certain us vs. them distinctions then maybe it could really be argued this kind of thinking would cause wars. But religion is hardly only that. And I know that you said "one of the reasons" but then for me the subject of this thread will still remain quite meaningless. It's almost hopeless to make any valid generalization over social phenomena, especially if the latter are so hard to define. Well, at least "religion" is.
Also, if this generalization had any real meaning, then it should be possible to define certain falsification conditions for the proposition in question. Concerning the latter, only condition I can think of would be an existence of a pacifistic religious denomination. We have them in todays world. Ergo - religion doesn't cause war

You also added that "it's not a simple causation, maybe a mutual effect, maybe a hand in hand relation". Very well, in that case I may easily agree with you because in social world anyhing can have effect on anything. And my point stillremains that the title of this thread is dumb as hell.

One more point. I really don't believe that in most of the time it can said that religion is made by men to control society. Firstly, most of the world religions (as you see, I am also unable to give a definition) beside the historical ones are not stricktly made, in the sense of a conscious decision. And although religions can be strong factors in maintaining social cohesion, I am not sure whether the religious "experts" have this as their primary motivation when keeping up the tradition. It surely can be sometimes but again, the possibility of generalizing doesn't seem believable .

am i supposed to defend the title?
there's a plausable corellation between war and religion but not neccessarily a causation IMO.
i agree, it's hard to define the term religion meant in the title. for example Buddhism, has it ever provoked any war?
but what about Islam or other Abrahimc ones? though i admit that without relligions there will certainly still be wars...
(as far as i know) when Islam arose, there was no centeralized State in Saudi Arabia, only distributed tribes ruled by an elder, that era is known as Jahellie (barbarism) but as Islam spread, a relatively centralized government appeared in spite of vast ethnic conflicts (to gain power) and little by little they united and even dared to invade the Persian empire.
that was the first phase...the second phase is that NOW they have a delusion of superiority and want to spread their new found doctorine and enforce it on other nations or despoil their property BUT they have to fight for it and fear of death may be a barrier that's when the third phase starts: the crusaders are good and the other side evil. religion makes the goods certain of their fascinating fate in heaven as a martyr and the evils terrifying destiny in hell and after all their freshly created omnipotent God is on their side and they fight for Him not themselves. therefore the crusaders (Mujahedin) fight to die while the defenders fight for their land and life... the crusaders win and interpret it as their God's gift to strengthen their belief...

i'm currently reading Freud's "Moses & Monotheism", he sensibly explains the psychological insprations of all the attributes assigned to a Moses by jews to make him suitable to play the role of their Messiah and where Yahweh's characteristics are rooted...
and no need to mention Christians Crusades/Inquisitions/...

one more thing, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is defined as a Islam(good) vs. Evil in our TV everyday and the government uses the same excuse to support terrorism. without religion (Islam) serving as a intermediary how else could they fool ppl so easy by such a simple black/white classification? what except an afterlife in paradise can make someone explode him/her self for nothing?

then yes i concur, religion seems to be more like an excuse or cover for other inspirations and there are several origins (possibly including religion itself) for any conflict to naively conclude: religion -> war

Maybe not millions of years, but the idea seems solid. Religion is simply a tool that wields fear and still has control of people to this day.

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 05.10.2008 at 22:18

Written by [user id=30512] on 10.06.2008 at 21:04

Written by [user id=31891] on 10.06.2008 at 18:02

Written by Berfones on 10.06.2008 at 17:37

Israel is a religious country and don't let anyone tell you it isn't, not only the david's star in the flag, but the decluration of independence clearly state that this would be a Jewish country and will be open to any Jew who wishes to imegrate to it, everything here is about religion, you must learn bible and pass the final test if you want a diploma, you cannot merry in civil marriage, there are offices in the government specificly for religion, I am an atheist, and the moment someone here knows it they start to look at me funny and odd, this place is built on religion...

thanks for information.

@Aei Ontos PLZ READ,KNOW,BE SURE then start to teach to others.

Read it. Well, if an Israeli says it it must be true.

it doesn't invalidate your argument, even in that case just "they start to look at HIM funny and odd" NOT murder him or something.
you wrote: "Don't you know that Israel is the land in the middle east with the highest level of human rights?"
and yes, looking at the counties in middle-east, your assertion still stands. IMO
Bahrain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Palestin, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, UAE, Yemen.



AND

Quote:

but at least, dare to compare the situation in Israel with that in Iran. http://hrw.org/doc/?t=mideast&c=iran

uhmmm...i know it all but never use it when arguing with an Iranian indivisual Cus the ppl (at least non-Muslims and even Moderate-Muslims) are victims NOT the tyrant...
too offensive if you ask me.

So....? Is religion (possibly) a problem in the wars in and around Israel and is Israel maybe wrong?

Written by [user id=30512] on 08.10.2008 at 22:13

So....? Is religion (possibly) a problem in the wars in and around Israel and is Israel maybe wrong?

isn't it obvious enough that i took your side on that argument?

The first part is clear, I just didn't understand the second part.

Written by [user id=30512] on 08.10.2008 at 22:33

The first part is clear, I just didn't understand the second part.

about the second part:
when arguing with The_Black_God, you used that link showing how fuckin bastard Iran's regime is, ok, you're right but i meant you shouldn't have used it against an indivisual because he has nothing to do what the governers do, is it clear now?

about the first part:
i forgot to mention that i've asked another israeli guy in another topic which kinda approves your statements about the comarison between Middle-eastern countries:

Written by Sunioj on 24.08.2008 at 10:08

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 24.08.2008 at 01:54

...is the law based on relligion or Isreal is secular? what about in schools, do you study theology or such things?

Law in Israel is indeed secular, however, there are many things that are exclusive to that rule. For instance, we don't have civil marriage and immigration is almost completely biased to jews receiving citizenship where as, christians from foreign countries would never have a chance of receiving citizenship unless they were born here. As for education, I never attended Israeli high school, but theology isn't required by the ministry of education. But I think it is mandatory in orthodox societies.

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 08.10.2008 at 22:44

Written by [user id=30512] on 08.10.2008 at 22:33

The first part is clear, I just didn't understand the second part.

about the second part:
when arguing with The_Black_God, you used that link showing how fuckin bastard Iran's regime is, ok, you're right but i meant you shouldn't have used it against an indivisual because he has nothing to do what the governers do, is it clear now?

about the first part:
i forgot to mention that i've asked another israeli guy in another topic which kinda approves your statements about the comarison between Middle-eastern countries:

Written by Sunioj on 24.08.2008 at 10:08

Written by AiwiAstwihad on 24.08.2008 at 01:54

...is the law based on relligion or Isreal is secular? what about in schools, do you study theology or such things?

Law in Israel is indeed secular, however, there are many things that are exclusive to that rule. For instance, we don't have civil marriage and immigration is almost completely biased to jews receiving citizenship where as, christians from foreign countries would never have a chance of receiving citizenship unless they were born here. As for education, I never attended Israeli high school, but theology isn't required by the ministry of education. But I think it is mandatory in orthodox societies.

I got it. Thank you very much.

I don't think that only one factor is enough to ever cause a war. Someone could say that the Crusades were only for religion, but i'm pretty confident that as the military strengths of countries in Europe grew that they would go to war for more land anyways.
Likewise with even world war 2. The Germans didn't just get manipulated by Hitler one week and decide that they wanted to kill so many of different religions, countries and races. It all started with the MESSED UP Treaty of Versailles which pretty much destroyed Germany's people, moral, economy, military, ect. It was this treaty that left the germans vulnerable, and ready to accept any leader (in this case Hitler) that promised to get them out of their mess.
Many things must happen in order to cause a war, not only religious reasons.

I think religion sometimes can cause war, but sometimes it is used as an excuse to go to war "fighting in the name of god"

Personally i believe that religion isn't the real cause of war. the leaders of the nations at war have normally other reason (economical profit f.e.). only the people of those countries really think that religion is the cause and only they will fight in the name of their god.

In the name of God you must die!!!
(Neal Morse)

Written by Powerslavex on 28.10.2008 at 14:34

I think religion sometimes can cause war, but sometimes it is used as an excuse to go to war "fighting in the name of god"

Agree. In todays wars I believe the most important thing is the stakes. Money. In Iraq and other non developed countries teh religion surely is a big factor in the decision of making a war, but when USA hit Iraq surely it was for money...

More people have been murdered in the twentieth century alone by atheism than all the religious wars of all time!!

1st world war...... 15 million

Russian civil war .....9 million

Soviet union .....20m

2nd world war .....55 million

chinese civil war ..... 2.5 m

peoples republic of China ..... 40 m

Tibet by the chinese 600K
korean war .....2.8 m
Vietnamn .....3.5 m
Cambodia / pol pot ..... 1.65 m
etc.......

Atheism/communism/totalitiarism/ all have ahtiestic values, they may use religious institutions but their ends justifiy their means.

Wars of secularism far outway the wars of religion.

Wars based on religion have been going back ever since the Roman republic and then a whole new branch emerged with Richard the Lion Heart trying to conquer Jerusalem for his god. In one form I agree that religion plays a big role in a lot of wars through out history but there have been numerous for causes such as land, wealth, power, etc. To say that religion and religion only, causes wars is untrue in my eyes.

Written by akatana on 21.11.2008 at 11:13

what soviet union? Stalin? The stupidity of these claims amazes me every time. I don't think you are stupid because you know the truth but you are dishonest.
I will try to explain you the principle but I am sure you know it already.
When someone goes around killing people because they are of different faiths or because they don't want to convert to your religion, that is killing in the name of religion. When some catholic goes and kills a jew for let's say political reasons, it's not killing in the name of religion. Similarly, if an atheist kills millions of people because he is a tyrannical madman it's not killing in the name of atheism.

I find this very interesting ( I'm sorry for my late reaction Taka).
When a catholic kills because he is a catholic and thinks it is neccesary for his believe it is a religious act, but when a communist or a nazi kills someone because he thinks it is neccesary for his ideology it is not an atheistic act. I think that the second world war was an atheistic war, so was the war in Vietnam, North Korea, Irak and many other wars. All the modern wars fought by first world countries are atheistic wars. A war has an ideology. Now the ideology is to bring democracy to people who don't want democracy. In earlier wars they wanted to bring equality (communism) or a united Europe (Nazis). The ideology is the atheistic (liberal/democratic) ideal. But it is not the ideal of anyone. Religion causes war, atheism is religion too.

Written by [user id=30512] on 12.12.2008 at 11:38

Written by akatana on 21.11.2008 at 11:13

what soviet union? Stalin? The stupidity of these claims amazes me every time. I don't think you are stupid because you know the truth but you are dishonest.
I will try to explain you the principle but I am sure you know it already.
When someone goes around killing people because they are of different faiths or because they don't want to convert to your religion, that is killing in the name of religion. When some catholic goes and kills a jew for let's say political reasons, it's not killing in the name of religion. Similarly, if an atheist kills millions of people because he is a tyrannical madman it's not killing in the name of atheism.

I find this very interesting ( I'm sorry for my late reaction Taka).
When a catholic kills because he is a catholic and thinks it is neccesary for his believe it is a religious act, but when a communist or a nazi kills someone because he thinks it is neccesary for his ideology it is not an atheistic act. I think that the second world war was an atheistic war, so was the war in Vietnam, North Korea, Irak and many other wars. All the modern wars fought by first world countries are atheistic wars. A war has an ideology. Now the ideology is to bring democracy to people who don't want democracy. In earlier wars they wanted to bring equality (communism) or a united Europe (Nazis). The ideology is the atheistic (liberal/democratic) ideal. But it is not the ideal of anyone. Religion causes war, atheism is religion too.

You can't have an atheistic (liberal/democratic) ideal. Religion doesn't even come into it. I agree that bringing democracy to countries was the aim of most modern wars (or so the country's who instigate them claim) but that is a completely political ideology. At the end of the day the second world war was a good old war of conquest, plain and simple, and had nothing to do with religion either (apart from some fanatical Nazi's who thought they were doing gods work). Theoretically you can have any political ideology and be of any religion. You can't link believing in nothing to any war that isn't of any other religion and thus say that war is religious.

Written by [user id=2943] on 12.12.2008 at 12:30

You can't have an atheistic (liberal/democratic) ideal. Religion doesn't even come into it. I agree that bringing democracy to countries was the aim of most modern wars (or so the country's who instigate them claim) but that is a completely political ideology. At the end of the day the second world war was a good old war of conquest, plain and simple, and had nothing to do with religion either (apart from some fanatical Nazi's who thought they were doing gods work). Theoretically you can have any political ideology and be of any religion. You can't link believing in nothing to any war that isn't of any other religion and thus say that war is religious.

What about Communists China's persecution, imprisonment, torture and execution of Christians? China was aiming to have an atheistic state which meant anyone of any faith had to convert or die.

Written by akatana on 12.12.2008 at 21:26

And I see another interesting point in this discussion, the religious people always defend the church and faith whenever there is talk of the bloody past saying that just because some people misinterpret the thing and kill does not mean that religion is bad. I agree, but why don;t you apply the same standards to atheism? Even if some people killed because of atheism does that mean that atheism is inherently prone to violence? No. But religious people always think they have the moral high-ground. In one respect you are right, atheism and communism and any other ideology is subject to misinterpretations, some of which can have dangerous effects.

It seems you are assuming that people of a spiritual faith are defending the acts their religions have done in the past. That is not the case. When have I ever written here that I defend the various Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the witch trials, abortion center bombings, etc? Never. I totally and completely condone acts like that. That is not what Jesus taught, and acts of violence do not represent what the true nature of Christianity is about.

Just as you say that atheism and communism and any other ideology is subject to misinterpretations, so is Christianity.

Written by Dane Train on 13.12.2008 at 18:56

It seems you are assuming that people of a spiritual faith are defending the acts their religions have done in the past. That is not the case. When have I ever written here that I defend the various Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the witch trials, abortion center bombings, etc? Never. I totally and completely condone acts like that.

HE ADMITS IT, HE ADMITS IT!!!!!!!!!

Written by Hyvaarin on 14.12.2008 at 10:52

Written by Dane Train on 13.12.2008 at 18:56

It seems you are assuming that people of a spiritual faith are defending the acts their religions have done in the past. That is not the case. When have I ever written here that I defend the various Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the witch trials, abortion center bombings, etc? Never. I totally and completely condone acts like that.

HE ADMITS IT, HE ADMITS IT!!!!!!!!!

How about you act a little more mature with this subject?

Let me correct that statement, since apparently my spell checker changed it to the wrong word without me knowing. "Condemn" should be the correct word.

Written by Dane Train on 14.12.2008 at 16:43

Written by Hyvaarin on 14.12.2008 at 10:52

Written by Dane Train on 13.12.2008 at 18:56

It seems you are assuming that people of a spiritual faith are defending the acts their religions have done in the past. That is not the case. When have I ever written here that I defend the various Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the witch trials, abortion center bombings, etc? Never. I totally and completely condone acts like that.

HE ADMITS IT, HE ADMITS IT!!!!!!!!!

How about you act a little more mature with this subject?

Let me correct that statement, since apparently my spell checker changed it to the wrong word without me knowing. "Condemn" should be the correct word.

How about you lighten up. I was joking .

Written by Hyvaarin on 14.12.2008 at 20:04

How about you lighten up. I was joking .

Well it is very hard to tell when someone is joking or not through text on the Internet. Certain people on this site that I know rather well I can tell when they are joking, but I honestly don't know you so I can't tell if you are joking or not. Combine that with the fact that I receive a rather large amount of hate mail from Metalheads, it is hard for me to "lighten up" most of the time.

Written by Dane Train on 14.12.2008 at 21:17

Written by Hyvaarin on 14.12.2008 at 20:04

How about you lighten up. I was joking .

Well it is very hard to tell when someone is joking or not through text on the Internet. Certain people on this site that I know rather well I can tell when they are joking, but I honestly don't know you so I can't tell if you are joking or not. Combine that with the fact that I receive a rather large amount of hate mail from Metalheads, it is hard for me to "lighten up" most of the time.

Fair enough. I was hoping all the exclamation marks and the sheer ridiculous of the post were enough but you can never be sure hehe.

Written by akatana on 15.12.2008 at 08:55

Written by Dane Train on 14.12.2008 at 21:17

Well it is very hard to tell when someone is joking or not through text on the Internet. Certain people on this site that I know rather well I can tell when they are joking, but I honestly don't know you so I can't tell if you are joking or not. Combine that with the fact that I receive a rather large amount of hate mail from Metalheads, it is hard for me to "lighten up" most of the time.

how come you receive hate mail?

Mmm, if I speak on behalf of Dane here. I think it has to do with the fact there are loads of so-called Metalheads who think Christianity and metal don't go together.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 15.12.2008 at 11:39

Mmm, if I speak on behalf of Dane here. I think it has to do with the fact there are loads of so-called Metalheads who think Christianity and metal don't go together.

Thank you Marcel, yes that is correct. "Tr00" Metalheads are offended by the notion of Christians using Metal to worship God with. I get many letters and e-mails from people who can't seem to understand how or why a Christian pastor would be into Metal. A year or so ago The Flame Within actually received several letters telling us to stop what we were doing or we would be hurt/killed, the letter was traced by the police back to a Black Metal band.

In all honesty I am just here to serve God, spread love and talk about Metal.

Since when is a fact a theory? Almost every war that's ever been fought throughout history has its roots in religion. The only people in denial are those who use faith as a psychological bandaid to accept their own fate. The fact of the matter is that mankind evolved out of the primordial cosmic soup, and as we've (d)evolved we've created this idea of religion to pacify the masses into believing that something else is out there after death.

Human beings have a difficult time accepting the fact that there's absolutely nothing after death except the great black forever. They need to believe in something and they'll buy almost anything, which proves they are a race of cattle, not enlightened beings.

Where was religion when we first discovered fire and how to hunt and kill for survival? You won't find those chapters in the "bible". Religion was created out of necessity and greed and its foundation built on the blood of millions of innocents throughout history. War is an inevitable consequence of religious beliefs and fervor. Remove religion from every current global situation and you have the formula for evolution and enlightenment. Until we break the limitations of our being put forth by the church we'll continue to devolve until our race is extinct.

I was baptized a catholic. I attended church ritually for nearly 16 years. I was an altar boy and read at mass on the weekends. I attended a private catholic school until my senior year. I was never molested or even approached by someone with such intentions. At the age of 16 I began to question the worth of what was being said and taught in school and at mass. By 17 I had completely given up the idea of going to church, and embraced the idea of science as a reason for our existence.

Since the age of 20 I've held everything the church stands for in complete contempt. I recently attended a lecture on baptism because I'm the "godfather" of my sister in law's son. Never in my life have a heard such complete and utter bullshit spewing forth from someone's mouth. I don't even think she believed half of what she was saying. The stories are so convoluted and absurd that you have to be seriously retarded to believe any of it. Some jackass in the audience asked a question about something she stated and she never even came up with an answer. She was programmed by the church just like a robot to give a speech which sounded so made up that even Stephen King would have been impressed.

History is a stark reminder of what the institution of church stands for and represents, and I abhor the idea of putting my "faith" in something that isn't tangible or even remotely realistic. The church represents war, greed and genocide on a massive scale, and your history books will tell you as such. Jesus was an unfortunate victim in the church's aggression and master plan to control humanity. How many messiahs and saviors were there at the time? Hundreds. Jesus was a pawn and look what it got him, dead.

I hold every religion on this planet in complete contempt until any one of them can prove anything they've put forth over the past two thousand years or use their power to end the suffering and misery that is mankind's legacy.

Merry Christmas

Written by ponderer on 17.12.2008 at 17:41

Where was religion when we first discovered fire and how to hunt and kill for survival? You won't find those chapters in the "bible". Religion was created out of necessity and greed and its foundation built on the blood of millions of innocents throughout history.

It seems that you don't really understand what the term Religion means. Everyone has a religion...even atheists. Religious is a common held belief amongst a group of people. Even your little ramble here showed me a glimpse at your worldview and religion. What more saying that 'religion' is to blame is gross overstatement. Events like the Crusades were a political and land war that twisted the beliefs of people and used the concept of Faith in God as a weapon. I am by no means saying that religious institutions are innocent, but claiming that religion is the problem is just a wrong assessment.