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Artificial Intelligence: The Age Of Endarkenment


Written by: Emre Gorur
Published: September 23, 2024
 


While the first part of this theoretical article on artificial intelligence states that the role of being the carrier of civilization’s ideal of enlightenment will now pass to machines, the second part analyzes the effects of artificial intelligence on art, specifically in metal music, and a historiography of metal’s post-internet era is carried out.

[Disclaimer: Images for this article were prepared using Microsoft Copilot]

* * *


“Panem, circenses, credulous descent
A Gadarene charge into endarkenment”

(Anaal Nathrakh, Endarkenment, 2020)


We are slowly beginning to understand the potential of artificial intelligence and its possible consequences. Artificial intelligence is increasingly becoming a part of our daily lives, and we find ourselves in frequent discussions related to it. Moreover, even the argument that artificial intelligence will make us unemployed has been accepted by a considerable number of people. We feel that things can change radically.

In fact, the course of civilization has been relatively stagnant, especially since the second half of the 20th century. More accurately, society is lagging behind predictions of the future that have frequently appeared in science fiction movies from the past and present. For example, the progress made in automotive technology cannot be said to be very impressive. Let alone flying cars, even getting rid of fossil fuels has not yet been achieved. While natural resources are being rapidly depleted and the world population is growing uncontrollably, civilization needs a technological breakthrough that will open new horizons for itself.

The Virtual Enlightenment Process




It can be argued that human civilization has historically risen on the basis of two great technological revolutions. The Neolithic Revolution, which followed the last ice age, is generally accepted to have created a rift in human history. It was this agricultural revolution that made it possible for man to abandon the principle of harmony with nature. A process based on the “enslavement” of the land, animals and, increasingly, his own kind was now underway. In this first phase of civilization, man attempted to create a reality for himself by trying to build walls between himself and nature.

This dual ontology, that is, the dualism of nature and society, has been the basis of civilized thought. Society is never considered as a sub-reality of nature, because this duality is the way to categorically separate humans from other animal species and attribute subjectivity to them. As society regresses nature, it is thought that the area of the subject (consciousness, freedom, geist...) expands. In this context, it is even possible to interpret civilization and enlightenment as identical processes. Enlightenment is the delusion of god seen by humans who are dazzled by the results of technology.

However, even though the level of technology tends to increase cumulatively, civilizations have to face structural crises and extinctions. “What man calls civilization always results in deserts,” and naturally there is a direct relationship between enlightenment periods and the course of civilizations.

The main one of these periods, which we know today as the Age of Enlightenment, was an outcome of Western civilization, which was showing symptoms of collapse, reproducing itself through colonialism. The material basis provided by taking control of new lands that could be called virgin allowed the West to update its ideology and open up space for the individual. The integration of this with a technological revolution would give great momentum to the process and create effects that would determine today’s world.

We were born into this reality. The urban societies we live in and their economic and class structures are the result of the Industrial Revolution, the second great technological development in the history of civilization. However, the level that artificial intelligence has reached makes us question whether this has come to an end. Could we be at one of the main crossroads of human history?

In fact, the process began with the internet. The most important point here, from a theoretical perspective, is that the internet-based information revolution divides social reality into material and virtual reality. The opening of a new area in human reality in this way is a sufficient basis to make it potentially the third major technological revolution. Artificial intelligence functions as the most important and dynamic result of this revolution by far.

Especially with the emergence of smart phones, one of the main characteristics of this period has become clear. As accessing information becomes easier, the need for people to store and process data themselves decreases. There is a negative correlation between the development of artificial intelligence and the ratio at which people use their brains. The need for technical knowledge in areas such as text production, visual creation, design, voice-over, and coding has already decreased considerably. Activities such as learning a foreign language are now becoming unnecessary. In short, it can be said that the information-human connection is gradually being broken.

Deep Blue’s defeat of chess world champion Garry Kasparov in 1997 was an unexpected development for most. Now, the balance has changed significantly. After 27 years, artificial intelligence has begun to surpass human levels in almost all evaluation criteria used. We are entering a period in which human cognitive capacity will no longer be able to compete with artificial intelligence.

The situation that human intellectual abilities lag behind those of artificial intelligence will inevitably lead to a gradual decrease in the need for it. It can be said that layoffs due to artificial intelligence are currently tending to become routine in certain sectors. The fact that artificial intelligence can perform tasks that require mental labor faster, more efficiently and more accurately than humans will condition radical changes in the structure of modern society. It seems quite possible that huge waves of unemployment will occur on a global scale and a new generation of “machine breakers” will emerge.

At this point, we come to a distinction that gained categorical meaning with the Industrial Revolution: Mental and manual labor. While this division of labor is among the founding elements of modern society, its elimination is also one of the conditions of communism. However, contrary to this utopian expectation, the duality in question tends to break apart, never to come together again. In the Industrial Revolution, machines were able to partially penetrate the field of manual labor. Today, the path of artificial intelligence in the field of mental labor is very open.

The fact that man is alienated from knowledge and excluded from the field of intellectual labor due to his mental capacity deficiency indicates that he will be pushed into an era of “ignorance”. In this article, this phenomenon will be called the Age of Endarkenment, adopting the name given to Anaal Nathrakh’s latest album.

But there is another side to the coin. When the focus is shifted from humans to artificial intelligence, it is realized that civilization has not given up on the ideal of enlightenment, but on the contrary, it is being tried to be reconstructed on a stronger basis.

Currently, artificial intelligence is still in its infancy. All current artificial intelligence applications are considered under the title of artificial special intelligence. In other words, they are all software developed for a specific area, such as solving equations or playing Go. In addition, it is not possible to say that they can go beyond compiling existing data and process information in a holistic way by connecting them. However, it is envisaged that this will be overcome at some point and an intelligence explosion will occur, referred to as artificial general intelligence or technological singularity.

According to the theory in question, once artificial intelligence categorically surpasses human intellectual capacity, it will no longer need human intervention. Imagine a machine intelligence that can produce more advanced versions of itself. This intelligence can perfect itself in a cycle that tends to infinity, and even the level it will reach in a short time will probably push the limits of human imagination.



It should be noted that this virtual enlightenment project is a much-improved version of the original. We can describe artificial intelligence as virtual reality in the process of establishing its own subjectivity. A machine intelligence without biological limits, virtually immortal, might well acquire a god-like identity.

There is only one “small” problem here. After the intelligence explosion, why would machines want to continue to serve the primitive life form called human? At that point, what tools will humans use to keep artificial intelligence in a position of servitude? What guarantee is there that machines will not aim to destroy the human race? It is currently not possible to claim that the prediction that the human body will be integrated with artificial intelligence after the singularity and that the distinction between humans and machines will disappear is more than a wish.

Regardless of where it will lead, the consequences of a possibility like an intelligence explosion are far beyond any other technological revolution in human history, but the “subject” of this history can no longer be human. Technological singularity means the transition to the post-human age.

Reincarnation of Art
Metal Music Example


Internet Revolution

The first period of the Internet Revolution in the context of our subject can be considered as starting from 1993, when the technology in question started to penetrate into people’s daily lives and the MP3 format was released, and ending in June 1999 when Napster, a peer-to-peer program focused on sharing digital audio files, emerged. In the second half of the ‘90s, it became possible to access MP3 files from websites, and mp3.com was launched in December 1997, but it was Napster and its successor applications that dealt the real blow to the music market. People being able to access music files on each other’s computers took the piracy phenomenon to a new level. At this point, the producer-market-consumer chain was seriously damaged, and listeners began to access musicians’ recordings directly and with minimal effort. As a result, naturally, album earnings fell dramatically. While in the pre-Napster world, consumers had to make an effort and take on a serious cost to access the product, over time, the fact that the audience was listening to a song or album began to be considered a blessing.

The download era would not last long either. Towards the mid-2000s, the widespread use of ADSL worldwide and the development of smart phones a few years later began to relieve listeners of the hassle of storing music. Applications such as Myspace, YouTube, Spotify, Bandcamp, Deezer, SoundCloud, Amazon Music, and Apple Music, although they could not generate significant income for musicians, placed digital music formats on a certain legal basis. The structure of the market, which had shrunk during this period that continues to the present day, has been reshaped.

This transformation of the music industry would inevitably determine the evolution of metal. At the beginning of this process, as a result of the dramatic transformation that the rock music market went through in 1991, traditional forms of metal were excluded from the mainstream. The US scene, which had dominated the metal music market since 1983, continued to follow a trend-oriented course by taking this situation as a given. Nu metal was influential between 1998-2003, and metalcore after 2004, but this would not continue. Each new trend created less economic profit than the previous one, and by the 2010s this path was effectively blocked.

However, this situation only partially affected the evolution of metal, because the metal tradition was divided into two, which became apparent from 1996-1997 onwards. The European scene, centered on Germany and the Nordic countries, which emerged as a new focal at that time, focused on building a metal scene that, unlike the US, was independent of the general orientations of the music industry and had its own development dynamics. The revival of interest in the main genres of metal and the entry into a fusion period by combining them with new social and cultural realities were developments that could not have happened without this alternative market.

In those years, this phenomenon was perceived as a natural result of an increase in metal music production, but when the statistics of the ‘90s are examined today, it is understood that this may be partially true at most. In fact, the determining factor was not the rise of metal, but the increasing visibility of underground activity. 1996 and later were the years when the internet became commercial and exploded. In other words, the ontological basis of this development was essentially the underground scene being supported by the dynamics of the internet.

This upward trend continued to increase after Napster. The number of metal albums released each calendar year showed a steady increase compared to the previous one. The underground’s advancement over the mainstream brought extreme metal to the center of the genre. Black and death became the driving forces of metal. The fact that metal has a high underground/mainstream ratio also made it stand out against other musical styles. According to streaming statistics, metal became one of the most popular music genres. So, it was no surprise that Heavy Blog is Heavy, for example, claimed that metal was experiencing a golden age around 2015. Metal music production was perhaps better than ever in terms of both quantity and quality.

In other words, the Internet Revolution, first with the technical opportunities it provided and then with the blow it dealt to the industry, caused a genre that was practically on its deathbed at the beginning of the process to undergo a striking evolution.

Of course, at this point we are talking about the underground scene where commercial concerns are at a low level. It is not possible to claim that this phenomenon affects metal as a whole in the same way.

In the post-Napster reality, with the value attributed to music having plummeted and rock star status practically gone, it is almost impossible for a new band to achieve major commercial success. There seems to be a caste system in metal. The “top” bands consist of only a few who have historically risen there, and they are now on their last legs. The “middle” bands are effectively stuck in limbo. They have no chance of moving up, nor are they worried about losing their positions. The only possible transition is from “bottom” to “middle”, but this is hardly a common occurrence.

Metallica, as the biggest band in metal history, was trying to rise to a new level and strengthen its position in the rock music industry when it faced Napster. The exaggerated reaction of the band’s leader Lars Ulrich should be interpreted in this context. With Napster, all future plans of the band lost their meaning. After the band’s attempt to associate with nu metal on 2003’s St. Anger, they cut off their ties with market movements. Similarly, Judas Priest, who spent their entire career positioning themselves according to trends in rock music, changed their manner with Rob Halford’s comeback album Angel Of Retribution in 2005. There is no trend to be benefited from anymore. Bands at this level can move freely without worrying about the outcome, and their choice to not take risks and focus on the appreciation of the widest possible segment of their potential audience is actually the most commercial move they have.

The greatest damage done to metal by this process is seen in the “middle” level groups. Even though metal music generally resists abandoning the album format, for a significant portion of the bands in this category, albums have a simple tool function. The reality that no money can be made from albums anymore inevitably increases the importance of concerts and product sales, and making albums may not be much more than a reason to organize a new tour. This style of survival has inevitably seriously reduced the quality of the music produced.



On the other hand, the “caste hierarchy” in question between bands is actually a manifestation of a kind of “democratization process”. As we saw when talking about the US scene, the major record companies that once held the helm are effectively out of the equation. New rock stars are not emerging, and it is not possible to claim that the existing ones can maintain their old mythic positions. In an environment where concerts and festivals are becoming increasingly important, unity is taking place at the grassroots level. The distance between listeners and musicians is gradually closing.

Artificial Intelligence Revolution

With the launch of Suno in December 2023 and Udio in April 2024, it is highly likely that a new phase will be entered in the process we discussed above.

In fact, the history of using artificial intelligence in the field of music is very old. Even in the 1950s, we come across pieces composed by computers. In other words, the relationship between artificial intelligence and music does not present any innovation. At this stage, the point that has the potential to be groundbreaking is that these programs and similar ones eliminate the need for technical knowledge in order to create music through artificial intelligence. While anyone who wants can now create their own compositions with simple written commands, the music industry is trying to prevent the process through litigation, as it did in the time of Napster.

Before these developments, the most important attempt to bring artificial intelligence to the metal world was Dadabots. This two-person formation, influenced by names such as Krallice, Meshuggah, The Dillinger Escape Plan, and Archspire, has carried out various albums and projects since 2017.

Nowadays, as expected, the number of virtual metal bands is increasing. Frostbite Orckings, who operate under a collective called Metalverse, has garnered a lot of attention for claiming to have released the first heavy metal album created by artificial intelligence.

But it seems unlikely that they will be important in terms of the evolutionary dynamics of the process. The trend is certainly not for musicians to be replaced by virtual bands. Napster-related developments have caused changes in the market structure. Artificial intelligence threatens the position of producers as well as the industry. As applications develop and the amount of data they process increases, the need for musicians will gradually decrease. Music, and art in general, will become an individual experience.



Let’s think about what artificial intelligence programs could potentially accomplish. First of all, due to their advanced technical analysis capabilities, these applications will have a better grasp of the musical structures of the bands than even the musicians who composed them at the time. Instead of waiting 7 years to listen to an album like 72 Seasons, you can create your own Metallica albums in seconds. If you want, create a version of Ride The Lightning, or include certain periods of the band in the result in the proportions you want. At this point, you will not have to be content with the bands’ own musical boundaries either. Would you like to hear how Motörhead’s narrow patterns would sound when interacting with different styles? Changing the musicians of existing albums can also yield interesting results. For example, how about listening to The Fragile Art Of Existence with Warrel Dane’s vocals? Or, would you predict which bands Chuck Schuldiner would be influenced by, if he had not passed away and created new Death and Control Denied albums accordingly? Of course, beyond these and similar possibilities, the most important thing is that listeners will be able to make their own compositions using the musical elements they want.

There are currently no legal restrictions on the applications. Similarly, unlike the Napster era, the issue of copyright is quite controversial. Still, over time, musicians and bands can be expected to be included in the system and, when technically possible, start publishing their own official programs.

Of course, there will be those who resist this process. Aside from the difficulty of completely eliminating demand for “organic” products, logically the strong underground metal scene could sustain itself to some extent for many years. But it’s not that simple.

Consider The Metal Archives’ decision not to accept artificial intelligence-generated music on its site. While they may have different arguments, trying to keep track of a phenomenon that is likely to grow astronomically in number in a short time and is becoming increasingly individual would be a futile effort anyway. So there’s no problem here. At some point, artificial intelligence itself could also start to uncover bands’ studio tricks. But what do we do with albums composed by artificial intelligence and recorded by professional bands? Given that musicians will logically subject them to a certain amount of editing, it will be virtually impossible to identify the real composer. How can we prevent artificial intelligence from infiltrating every aspect of metal, including conservative platforms like The Metal Archives?

How realistic is it to expect musicians not to resort to such a functional tool when they already have it at their disposal? How much resistance can you show to an application that offers you the amount of musical material that would take you months, perhaps years, to produce as a composer for a professional band, in a very short time, and in a way that reflects your own style?

The inclusion of artificial intelligence in the equation will inevitably trigger a crisis of trust in musicians among listeners. In an environment where every album could potentially be prepared with the support of artificial intelligence, music will not retain the value it once had in the eyes of listeners. As suspicion of the work increases, the value given to it will decrease proportionally. In other words, it is not necessary to wait for the period when artificial intelligence-created music will be deemed more valuable to see human-made music become worthless.

Even new musicians who might be considered geniuses in the pre-artificial intelligence reality will not be able to make a difference under these conditions. While the only names that are given importance are those who have achieved this status in their time, they will find themselves in a grueling competition with artificial intelligence. Let’s assume that Steve Harris chooses to stay away from artificial intelligence. While there are many new compositions that seem to have come out of Iron Maiden’s brightest periods and interesting experiments based on this musical structure, will the fact that a song was written by the “real Steve Harris” be enough to make it important? Trying to create the best versions of one’s own music by using artificial intelligence, openly or implicitly, in order to keep interest alive, seems like a more logical course of action, at least in the short term, but it should be expected that sooner or later these transformation pains will end and music will become an individual experience, as mentioned above.

At this point, one may encounter claims that artificial intelligence will not be able to go beyond being a craftsman and produce art, and will be inadequate in reflecting human emotions. The art-craft distinction and the soul-body dualism... Could these theoretical assumptions really be natural limits that will halt the progress of artificial intelligence in this field?

To start from the end and eliminate unnecessary philosophical discussions, the level that artificial intelligence has reached in its infancy should provide a strong enough practical answer to this idealistic claim. Looking at the revolutionary developments triggered by the phenomenon called big data in the field of artificial intelligence, it can be said that computers can successfully imitate all kinds of emotions under conditions where sufficient data accumulation is provided. After all, the issue is not that artificial intelligence acquires human emotions, but that it can analyze and reproduce them.

As for the art-craft distinction, which dates back to the beginning of the 15th century, this was a result of the enlightenment winds that began to blow in Italy and reflected a liberal approach that prioritized individual creativity over collective production. Some of the painters whose products were valued per square meter in the past quickly achieved star status. In other words, the main element that distinguished the artist from the craftsman was the extra value created by the signature of the former. However, this does not mean that artistic production is specific to individuals in this category. A contrary perspective would lead to the absurd conclusion that non-Western societies that do not recognize this distinction do not have the capacity to produce art. Although there is a professional difference between the artist and the craftsman, this relationship is not identical to the art-craft distinction. In short, one does not have to be convinced that artificial intelligence deserves the artist epaulette in order for its products to be considered works of art.

Conclusion

From the analysis conducted so far, it is understood that artificial intelligence will carry the tendencies of the internet era to their logical conclusions. Phenomena such as the devaluation of music and the closing of the gap between the musician and the listener are beginning to gain an absolute identity under the new conditions.

Even if some branches of art feel the effects of this less than others, art has entered a transformation process. Of course, the analyses above may not be directly valid for some branches of art, but there should be no harm in claiming that the picture presented specifically for metal music reflects the general orientation of artificial intelligence towards art. The technical tools it provides have the potential to cause irreparable damage to established market structures. For example, imagine the earthquake that applications that offer the opportunity to prepare films with the quality of Hollywood productions will create in the film industry. As artificial intelligence develops, art will cease to be a commercial activity.

Another issue that has already been touched upon is the dark future of human art. Not only artistry as a profession but also human-made art is under threat in the face of artificial intelligence. On the one hand, the reality that human art is increasingly turning into an activity that does not generate financial income, and on the other hand, the fact that it will become impossible to compete with machines in time will lead this outcome.

This stage that is expected to be reached corresponds to the manifestation of the phenomenon we call the Age of Endarkenment in the field of art. In fact, this second part of the article should be evaluated as an analysis of the transition process leading to it. Art is being transferred from one structure to another. At the cost of gradually fading away in the organic but limited human-material reality, it is being reestablished in the mechanical but vast human-virtual reality. Therefore, it would be appropriate to talk about the reincarnation of art, not the possibility of its death.



These statements may not seem pleasant, but if ideological preconceptions are left aside, it will be realized that this is not actually a doomsday scenario. This new ground brings with it the opportunity to expand the horizons of art as much as possible with the material facilities it will provide.

We have given some examples above of what artificial intelligence can offer us in metal music. Now let’s try to think about the evolution of metal in a more systematic way.

If metal music’s globalization and synthesis ability were not so high, the opportunities offered by the Internet Revolution could only be partially utilized. This flexibility gives metal a serious evolutionary power. On the one hand, metal tends to spread to every part of the world and every culture, and on the other hand, it can be alloyed with every kind of music. However, despite all this, only a small part of the possible evolution of metal has become a reality today, and this process will progress very slowly under human artistic conditions.

What could change when artificial intelligence reaches its potential in the field of music? The existence of a machine intelligence with in-depth knowledge of all musical genres and cultures on earth would logically lead the evolution to its limits in this field. All kinds of changes that genres can experience both within themselves and in synthesis have already potentially occurred within the structure of artificial intelligence. In an environment where countless actors produce individual music every day through artificial intelligence and the industry as we know it has disappeared, the evolutionary process ceases to be a linear phenomenon and becomes atomized. From this point on, music will no longer have a history.





Guest article disclaimer:
This is a guest article, which means it does not necessarily represent the point of view of the MS Staff.


Comments

Comments: 24   Visited by: 104 users
23.09.2024 - 15:00
musclassia
Staff
I had quite a lot of thoughts going through my head while I was proofreading this well-written article; I won't dive into the first part of the article, as I have enough ongoing anxiety about the rapidly dystopian evolution that the world currently seems to be undergoing as it is, and really it's the music side that is more interesting.

Before I joined the band I'm in, I spent a couple of years writing what ended up being a few dozen songs in Guitar Pro; I've recorded and released one of them with Chullachaqui, and have ambitions to make a full album that is very slowly taking shape, but it would certainly be far easier if I could take the programmed tracks and have an AI transform them into guitar/bass/drum parts that sound like [insert desired musician/band here], and an AI that could circumvent the recording and production process would be very alluring to solo projects of individuals with instrumental limitations. Whether I would use such a tool I can't say until it exists in an accessible state, but I wouldn't really judge someone in a similar position who opted to do so, particularly if that person doesn't have the necessary finances or connections to get their written material produced otherwise (recording, mixing and mastering are expensive processes).

That's a case of using AI to turn human-written music into 'professional'-sounding output (as opposed to the inherently limited sounds of Guitar Pro and similar programs), but this article focuses more on AI writing based on prompts, and ultimately writing genre-leading and genre-redefining music from scratch. It's a very interesting situation to ponder. It probably shouldn't be surprising that there's already AI out there able to output songs in the style of the more reductive versions of particular genres; quite a lot of genres are very formulaic in their most generic form (and that is a reason that a lot of them receive a lot of criticism), so programs that can output e.g. generic thrash, stoner or post-rock are pretty much inevitable if they don't exist already. However, the worst examples of such music, even when human-generated, I find a bit difficult to view as art due to the absence of meaningful inspiration. The ultimate question is if and when AI will be able to rival humans at creating music that is 'creative' and artistic. I've always felt that the emotionality of humans will play a meaningful role in distinguishing the best human output from robot output, at least for a while, but as you say if you teach AI to recognize musical elements and segments that draw particular emotional responses, at some point it might be possible to train an AI to replicate writing driven by, and intended to evoke, particular emotions. If an AI was taught using all of Riverside's other material, would it ever be capable of completely independently creating "Left Out", for me their most evocative song? If so, the question of how bad this is arises: if AI was able to create music, or movies, that exceeded the potential of humans, would we be worse off for it? I also doubt AI will make human musicianship redundant in the immediate future - humans are more than happy to go watch cover acts of bands that actively tour, so people will still watch the actual bands even if there's AI out there that does what said bands do better.

Without having any finger on the pulse of current AI evolution, I imagine the time until some of these questions start to be meaningfully challenged can be measured in years, but for now, maybe if you're e.g. in a djent band and the songs you write are less memorable than what the procedurally generated djent channel pumps out, or if you're a thrash band and current-gen AI can write more memorable riffs, this might be a time to reflect on the merits of what you're producing.
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02.10.2024 - 21:08
poring dark
Very interesting article, and looking forward to part 2.

Re " listeners will be able to make their own compositions using the musical elements they want": I would expect some people preferring to listen to what others have asked AI to compose, and "stars" in this activity might emerge for a while.

I agree with AI being a threat to artistry as a profession; I don't think that human-made art is under threat to disappear as long as there are some humans left, some of which will want to express themselves artistically. Possibly human-made art will become to be regarded as "naturally and inevitably second-rate" compared to the AI generated one.

From the recipient's point of view, one aspect of what makes art, or more specifically, books and music, interesting for me is the mind behind it; and that feeling of a connection across time and space (I can read the words written by someone long dead and speculate how the world looked to them, and the same goes for music). ..... That is actually not an argument for human-made art being more valuable/real/true, because I don't actually know what made the artist tick and having the same kind of speculation on the AI "mind" that may or may not be there could be equally (but not more) attractive.
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02.10.2024 - 23:32
Karlabos
I see a lot of people worrying about how AI will take the place of the artists but not much of asking WHY would the AI take the place of the artists...

Is it really inevitable that some thing without a heart creates art better than someone who does it consciently? And people will all acknowledge that exactly like that? They wouldn't search for the better pieces of art, and those wouldn't be done by those who are not doing it based on algorithms? Why would it be like that?

If it was really inevitably like this then to me it just speaks a lot about the specific art of the ones complaining...
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"Aah! The cat turned into a cat!"
- Reimu Hakurei
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03.10.2024 - 07:38
Cynic Metalhead
Ambrish Saxena
Written by Karlabos on 02.10.2024 at 23:32


Is it really inevitable that some thing without a heart creates art better than someone who does it consciently? And people will all acknowledge that exactly like that? They wouldn't search for the better pieces of art, and those wouldn't be done by those who are not doing it based on algorithms? Why would it be like that?

Good questions and it's been encountered ever since AI slowly starting seeping into music industry. Like often asked, can it truly replicate the essence of human creativity at the forefront?

Even though AI reflects synethic solutions, I still really want it should diminish the difference of recognising human and AI creativity.
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03.10.2024 - 18:19
Ivor
Staff
Written by Karlabos on 02.10.2024 at 23:32

I see a lot of people worrying about how AI will take the place of the artists but not much of asking WHY would the AI take the place of the artists...

Is it really inevitable that some thing without a heart creates art better than someone who does it consciently? And people will all acknowledge that exactly like that? They wouldn't search for the better pieces of art, and those wouldn't be done by those who are not doing it based on algorithms? Why would it be like that?

If it was really inevitably like this then to me it just speaks a lot about the specific art of the ones complaining...

Without yet reading the article I'll give you one idea that seems to be a main cause of concern. We're not talking high art in this respect. We're talking about creative fields of work, like cover design, illustrations, layouts, things that normally require paid work by a skilled artist in the respective field. It's less about producing art to be shown at the gallery but one that is commissioned as part of some larger product, like books, albums, articles, or even chips package, etc. That is the issue. Because in the matter of cutting costs and with a better and better AI generated content it boils down to money - the result - when not perfect - is usually "good enough" or passable. It's - how do I put it? - a matter of mass production. Are you satisfied with the factory-pressed shoes you can get at any store that will give you sores until worn-in or are you willing to pay up to ten times more for custom-mades? Do you buy your shirt and a suit at a (high-end) store or will you go to a tailor and have it made to measure? It's not that everything creative will disappear with AI. It's going to be niche and it's going to be even more complicated to earn a living with it. That, in particular, is what worries people. Some will adapt to new technology, some are above having this problem in the first place, but a lot will suffer from diminishing income as the time goes on.

I.
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03.10.2024 - 18:54
Karlabos
Written by Ivor on 03.10.2024 at 18:19

Written by Karlabos on 02.10.2024 at 23:32

I see a lot of people worrying about how AI will take the place of the artists but not much of asking WHY would the AI take the place of the artists...

Is it really inevitable that some thing without a heart creates art better than someone who does it consciently? And people will all acknowledge that exactly like that? They wouldn't search for the better pieces of art, and those wouldn't be done by those who are not doing it based on algorithms? Why would it be like that?

If it was really inevitably like this then to me it just speaks a lot about the specific art of the ones complaining...

Without yet reading the article I'll give you one idea that seems to be a main cause of concern. We're not talking high art in this respect. We're talking about creative fields of work, like cover design, illustrations, layouts, things that normally require paid work by a skilled artist in the respective field. It's less about producing art to be shown at the gallery but one that is commissioned as part of some larger product, like books, albums, articles, or even chips package, etc. That is the issue. Because in the matter of cutting costs and with a better and better AI generated content it boils down to money - the result - when not perfect - is usually "good enough" or passable. It's - how do I put it? - a matter of mass production. Are you satisfied with the factory-pressed shoes you can get at any store that will give you sores until worn-in or are you willing to pay up to ten times more for custom-mades? Do you buy your shirt and a suit at a (high-end) store or will you go to a tailor and have it made to measure? It's not that everything creative will disappear with AI. It's going to be niche and it's going to be even more complicated to earn a living with it. That, in particular, is what worries people. Some will adapt to new technology, some are above having this problem in the first place, but a lot will suffer from diminishing income as the time goes on.

I.

Well, I was meaning it all more on a metal music context. I don't think AI will get the jobs of artists since an algorithm will most likely not be able to produce quality material. Sure, AI can be fun and interesting now that it's beginning, but when it becomes old it'll become forgettable. And those who insist on it will still be producing subpar stuff (because it's algorithmically generated), so they will be forgettable as well.

About the art being used as part of something else thing, sure, these ones may be quickly engulfed by AI as you mentioned. But then again, that has always happened every single era, no? Or are we gonna be sad that the horse sellers will lose their jobs and stop inventing cars? If we think like that we will never advance technologically. The way I see it, if some job demand starts getting scarce it just means it's not really needed anymore.
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"Aah! The cat turned into a cat!"
- Reimu Hakurei
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03.10.2024 - 19:15
Ivor
Staff
Written by Karlabos on 03.10.2024 at 18:54

The way I see it, if some job demand starts getting scarce it just means it's not really needed anymore.

I'm not going to argue the for or against of either side. The scary prospect is not that of someone losing their livelihood. Well, it is scary, especially when it's you. The problem is rather that of lack of diversity and the concentration of power and money. The advances of tech are fine but this tech is concentrated at only few companies globally and the whole chain of producing content works as a funnel to pump more and more wealth across the board towards those who already have more than enough. Was it good that cars production pressed horse traders out of business? Depends how you look at it. Did it help create a more equal world? Does AI help to create a more equal world or does it rather reinforce the imbalance? How do you deal with the huge number of insecure creatives who've invested time and money to study and hone their craft just to be written off by algorithms of multinational conglomerates? It's easy to look at it when it's not you. Our society is not equipped to support such sweeping radical changes because, on paper, it's governed by capitalist values and this advance is a more effective way of earning money. It's fine to say go study something else now. Say at 50, having lost your income in this fashion, how would you feel to go back to school after a new profession?

I.
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03.10.2024 - 22:12
Karlabos
Written by Ivor on 03.10.2024 at 19:15

The scary prospect is not that of someone losing their livelihood. The problem is rather that of lack of diversity and the concentration of power and money. The advances of tech are fine but this tech is concentrated at only few companies globally and the whole chain of producing content works as a funnel to pump more and more wealth across the board towards those who already have more than enough.

Yes, that is the main problem, indeed. But since that is the main problem and not the technological advance per se, then blaming the ascension of AI does seem like focusing on the wrong thing, no? It's no different than blaming the invention of cars themselves for the lack of job opportunity on the horse business. It's what you said later: the society is not equipped to support the changes, and that is the core problem, not the problem of the changes themselves. If anything we should be discussing "how can we modify our society so that we can cope with the aftereffects of jobs A, B and C not being needed for the society anymore", and not worrying about "how can we maintain jobs A, B and C".

I don't want to sound like an angsty teenager advocating for socialism but well... Ultimately it's the capitalism system that is wrong. Not in the sense that it is inherently evil and needs to stop, but flawed as an abstract system, as an economic model that uses an assumption that doesn't translate well when brought into reality. Sure, setting everything around profit and efficiency does sounds good because in theory it would force the people to be effective and use their creativity to increase productivity, which ultimately would be good for the society as a whole in theory, but you just need to look at it from what would happen in the end: what if society were so advanced that everything was automatized and nobody needed to work anymore? Well, then theoretically there would be riches for everyone and in theory the society as a whole should have enough to feed everyone forever without anyone being in need, but who would own these riches then? Would it be distributed for everyone? The way the system is currently design the answer is no, it wouldn't. It would stay with the owners of the corporations that own the automated systems. Everybody else would starve. So yep... Something needs to be changed on the core of the theory itself and that's becoming more and more evident as technology grows further. And NOO! I am NOT talking about socialism. That other system has even worse core flaws.

Quote:

Was it good that cars production pressed horse traders out of business? Depends how you look at it. Did it help create a more equal world? Does AI help to create a more equal world or does it rather reinforce the imbalance? How do you deal with the huge number of insecure creatives who've invested time and money to study and hone their craft just to be written off by algorithms of multinational conglomerates?

Well, I'll go ahead and say that on the long run it was better for the society as a whole: now we all can travel longer distances with more ease and we don't need to tire the poor animals, so it was better, no? Sure, horse traders did lose their job but ultimately it looks like it was the best for society. I think that's how technological advance is going to go most of the time: every new invention that makes another job easier, if used well, would ultimately be for the benefit of the society as a whole. As I mentioned earlier, the fact that this increases unemployment on certain areas are just the flaw of the system, not of the inventions themselves. You mentioned equality here, which sounds a bit socialistic to me (the goal of that system is to make it equal for everyone) but is a more equal society really better? I don't know... I fail to think so, and that's one reason why I often think capitalism is a far better system than socialism as to translate the economics of a society (still flawed though): imagine if every job were paid equally. Then why would someone choose a harder job? There would be no reason for it. Therefore we cannot really pay everybody the same because it isn't true that every job is equal, tif we want to make things fair. Now think about each job itself: should every professional of the same job be paid the same? Well, if so, why would you look forward to do your job right? There's no reason for it. Everybody would do the minimum of the minimum. Ultimately different people are productive (or not) at different paces, and that should be translated on payment for fairness. After all, the payment is the reward for the value the person aggregates for society, and if they are not doing much, then... It's just fair that they don't earn as much, no? Now capitalism translates this pretty well: it leaves the values of the payments for the people itself to decide, based on offer and demand. That sounds like the most fair thing to do no? If the society decides one job is very much needed, then well... The professionals of that job should earn a lot because they are aggregating a lot of value for society. And that's the most fair because it's the society itself who decided it after all. But then you get this weird extreme cases where one persons has billions and the others have nothing. But can we really blame them? Or are we really gonna pretend The owner of Amazon didn't revolutionize the field of home delivery with his idea? A guy that did that much for society should be awarded very well, no? Well, anyway... That's all just to justify that a fair society not necessarily needs to have things distributed more equally and that maybe it's better for people who do a lot to be paid a lot. But of course, this economic system although translating this part of economics better also gets his flaws, as aforementioned.

Quote:

It's easy to look at it when it's not you. Our society is not equipped to support such sweeping radical changes because, on paper, it's governed by capitalist values and this advance is a more effective way of earning money. It's fine to say go study something else now. Say at 50, having lost your income in this fashion, how would you feel to go back to school after a new profession?

I.

Well, I don't like doing this because I don't think arguments should be based on the background of the argumentator, since that would be legitimating ad hominens on an argument, but I myself am on a field that has some worries with future employment. I have a PhD on a niche field and pretty much all I can do is being an university lecturer, and I haven't found a stable job yet (currently I'm migrating from one university to another via temporary/invited professor roles that have fixed time contracts). Less and less oportunities for tenure lectures appear on universities since there are too many people getting PhDs and not as many professors retiring, and that's just basic math. If I lecture to a doctorate class of more than one person and they all earn their degree it means it was only needed one professor to create several. Keep doing that foverer and the maths don't match. Another problem is that several universities have been showing the trend to record lectures and disponibilize them for the students. Now, PhDs everywhere are worried with where this is going. It could potentially threaten their chance of getting a position since the universities could just reuse the recorded lectures and then have some tutors or something for dealing with the students questions.

Now am I getting too crazy about that? I am aware of that, sure... Nowadays I'm comfy in my position but I do have this though in the back of my mind that my job opportunities could get so scarce that I should just reinvent myself someday soon. But I'm not blaming the trend itself, I am thinking like: maybe I could study data science and get some position on that field since it's pretty close to what I do today. Or maybe I could move away for another country where that doesn't happen, I don't know... But it just feels wrong to complain about it and demand that the universities don't do that like some of my colleagues do. They really do be inventing excuses to demonize the whole online lecturing thing and while some points do seem valid, at the end of the day it shows they are doing it just because they are worried about their comfy seat. I believe we should do what is better for the society as a whole and not worry only about our specific situation.
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"Aah! The cat turned into a cat!"
- Reimu Hakurei
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04.10.2024 - 09:03
Ivor
Staff
Written by Karlabos on 03.10.2024 at 22:12

...

I don't disagree with what you are saying, Karlabos. I also didn't mean you as in you personally, more as in we, all of us who are on the sidelines of someone else's struggles could use some imagination of being in those shoes. But while I concur that technology in general (with some notable exceptions) is neither good nor bad inherently the field of application of said technology can be. If the application of technology destabilises society to a large extent or brings with it more suffering and problems than it actually solves there may be merit in foregoing cars so horse traders can go on existing, so to say. As I said before, I'm not arguing for or against here. I don't know the answer myself and neither does the society as a whole. But it's also not just the case of letting technology go its own route. The struggles the people (will) have are real and they project it at what they see as the cause. How these struggles are addressed is what needs solving.

I.
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10.10.2024 - 12:18
Desha
delicious dish
As someone who works in the field of machine learning (albeit more specifically Scientific Machine Learning, which sadly does lag behind the big data side in some aspects) and therefore is at least somewhat up to date with what is being done and what the potentials are, I can't help but comment on the first part of the article: I tend to get people coming to me about the dangers of (general, superintelligent) AI and what I think about it quite a lot, and I always kind of sigh and roll my eyes. This is fantasy, as things stand. We do not have general AIs and just the logistics of training one with the current systems we have would be a nightmare. ChatGPT, while an incredibly impressive chatbot, is using an insane amount of resources to train and function and is basically just a predictive chat bot that works worse than humans most of the time (just faster, which is the general trend for Neural Network based systems). A general intelligence is infinitely harder and would require insane amounts of data and much better processing. But even given we would have all of those: There is still numerics to consider (neural networks have to be trained and training has to get to some satisfying solution) and once a network is trained, that's it (it is not constantly re-evaluating and updating "stored" information like human brains are for example). In all aspects except scale and speed, AI lacks behind human brains (and for "solved" problems, behind mathematical models as well). I wouldn't be scared of an AI apocalypse or singularity, ever.

Now to the real topic of the article! I think a lot of important points are raised and I generally agree with this being potentially a trend that is just not going to be stopped and will eventually just become part of the system, much like first downloading and then streaming were. However I don't see many of the dangers people are afraid of: Employment is, like the article states, already kind of a non-issue for metal anyways, as there's no money to be made already. The money lies precisely in the social aspects: merch, concerts. So I doubt there will be much issue monetarily. Because metal musicians are typically also not artists for hire who work on commission (like visual artists or writers who actually are having a big crisis right now), the fundamental thing an AI can offer, is not as appealing as in other art fields. "Generate me Metallica but fix Lars' drumming" sounds fun to do and people no doubt will try it out as a gimmick (maybe even let it produce new music), but I assume this will wear off fast. The biggest joys in music usually come in connecting with others about it (hence me writing annoying and overly long comments on a metal forum). Therefore, new individual productions don't seem to me like they would overtake the industry.

What is the biggest problem I see coming, and one that the article already hints at but doesn't quite spell out, is how it will be even harder to search through all the stuff produced and put out there. Of course metal already has this problem, its underground nature leading to tons and tons of small one man black metal bands that populate the internet that most people will never have heard of. But they still, will have to have been made by actual people, which is time consuming and thus greatly limits scope. One can therefore forgive Buckethead for releasing 12414 albums last month, but flooding the internet with AI generated music is a whole other issue. It is also similar to issues the internet faces generally right now, with google search and images being populated in large parts by first SEO slob and now AI generated material.

Lastly, I would want to talk about the philosophical "can a computer even produce art" argument. Distinctions between craft and art are all well and good, but metal already blurs the lines here a lot. Wanting to have human feelings in the art you consume and value sounds good, but in a field where there is random black metal project nr. 901828 with essentially nameless composers, no live shows, no background and no face is already indistinguishable to "a computer made it". The only difference is being told "a human made this", which no doubt will be irrelevant by the point it is unknown. I barely know band members' names for a vast majority of my favourite music, much less their ideals and ideas. I can guess based on their lyrics (if even intelligible and/or published) and production, but this is akin to a Rorschach Test, as most art often is. "The artist is dead" has never been more true than in underground death (haha) and black metal music and will continue to be true when it comes to AI.
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You are the hammer, I am the nail
building a house in the fire on the hill
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11.10.2024 - 12:08
Emre Gorur
Written by Desha on 10.10.2024 at 12:18

...

Artificial intelligence applications consume a lot of energy and it is very costly to advance this process. Therefore, there may be a new AI winter, meaning that investments in this area may decrease. I am not interested in this aspect of the issue. I do not have a prediction about when artificial general intelligence will be realized, but I do not see any theoretical obstacle to its realization.
According to my expectation, the individualization of music will gradually eliminate the interest in the music produced by others. After a certain point, people should logically produce for themselves, not to upload to platforms on the internet. After all, we are talking about music that will be produced in seconds.
The black metal topic you mentioned in the last paragraph is very interesting, but I interpret it differently. Let me try to explain it.
“Our black metal is… an utter and complete rejection of modernity. The ‘common sense’ principles of the enlightenment – ​​science, logic, rationality, humanism, reductionism, materialism – are revealed to be a sham. In the place of modern, liberal, democratic, capitalist society black metal demands that we return to a premodern modality.”
These words belonging to the members of Wolves In The Throne Room theorize the logic underlying black metal very strongly. This was the main tendency of the tradition of black metal in particular and extreme metal in general since the very beginning. First, extreme metal moved away from modernism, mainly in terms of vocals. When we look at the evolution of vocals in this style, we see that it is gradually approaching nature-animals, as opposed to humans, who are assumed to be the subject of civilization. Black metal in particular resembles some uncanny noises coming from snowy peaks of mountains and ancient forests. It is a hatred vomited against modernity. In this respect, it is positioned very close to the anarcho-primitivism understanding of writers like John Zerzan.
Despite all this, black metal’s musical break from modernism did not happen all at once. This situation came to the fore in the third period of the style and this is the main issue that gave Deathspell Omega its historical importance. Deathspell Omega was not the first but the strongest example of the tendency to break away from modernism in metal and with its trilogy, it signed an anti-modernist revolution.
So, to get to the point, I interpret the fact that extreme metal musicians hide their identities, do not give concerts, etc. as an extension of this attitude.
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11.10.2024 - 12:25
Ivor
Staff
Written by Emre Gorur on 11.10.2024 at 12:08

According to my expectation, the individualization of music will gradually eliminate the interest in the music produced by others. After a certain point, people should logically produce for themselves, not to upload to platforms on the internet. After all, we are talking about music that will be produced in seconds.

Why are you dropping one side of the artist and art appreciator relationship? Art is not made for self-consumption. It's always made for others. Even if your impulse to create art is coming from within and you do it to "get it out of your system" it's still made for someone else to appreciate. Very rare are circumstances when art remains hidden away from public view. And in those situations the artist is not the one to go over their art in appreciation. Your statement only addresses one side - the side of consumption and it is entirely possible that for some that's how it's going to end up. But for others the importance of human aspect will probably remain. And for those who use music as a form of self-expression it's a scary prospect. No artist wants to create their work into complete void. Art as a form of self-expression and a discussion platform with the society will probably survive, likewise for music as a form of art.

I.
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11.10.2024 - 20:37
Desha
delicious dish
Written by Emre Gorur on 11.10.2024 at 12:08

I do not have a prediction about when artificial general intelligence will be realized, but I do not see any theoretical obstacle to its realization.

Ok incoming maybe too detailed and scientific rant:
I mentioned some I see, mainly Numerics being an issue at this point. I guess you could argue about whether that's a theoretical or practical concern, but error estimation in Neural Networks is practically nonexistent. Hence we do not train networks that have to know too many things, the losses do not converge (aka the network won't learn). One could envision a network that just talks to other networks and employs those, but that would be filled with errors at every link. Furthermore, The main problem so far is also a lack of continuous learning. Transfer learning (taking a pretrained neural network and adapting it to a slightly different use-case), is being explored but not far from what a human brain can do (and also way worse, older things just get forgotten). That's not even to talk about hallucinations, which human brains somehow are way better at avoiding in certain aspects (which might be a complexity issue, but could also be a fundamental one with neural networks).
A final problem is the "superintelligent" part. A neural network can train super well how to play games, with strict rules and copious amounts of data. However, stuff like speech is really hard! And it will just learn from human inputs. A Neural Network fundamentally is trained to fit a function (or operator) that describes the training data. But because it is bound by numerics and mathematical optimization methods (and particularly crude ones like simple-ish gradient descent, at the moment), the fit will never be perfect nor be all that great at extrapolating. That's just what happens during training these problems. The last reason is why AI is sadly not breaking into the scientific world yet (we have super precise and scalable modelling that can extrapolate based on fundamental laws in a lot of cases). I am only aware of weather (super chaotic process that we don't fully know everything about) and protein folding (the AI is worse but within tolerance, and waaay faster) as use cases.
Tl;dr general superintelligent AI:
- Training many things at once is basically impossible with computers and neural networks
- There's no way to self-correct errors based on fundamental laws
- There's no constant re-learning needed for intelligence
- Extrapolation from fitting data is basically impossible and networks will not be more complex than the (often human) data they're trained on. The use case is just that they're usually faster.

Written by Emre Gorur on 11.10.2024 at 12:08

According to my expectation, the individualization of music will gradually eliminate the interest in the music produced by others. After a certain point, people should logically produce for themselves, not to upload to platforms on the internet. After all, we are talking about music that will be produced in seconds.

Be aware you're writing this on a metal forum, where people join to talk about which music they like. If art goes fully individual, people cannot talk about this stuff, robbing art of a lot of the appeal.

Written by Emre Gorur on 11.10.2024 at 12:08

The black metal topic you mentioned in the last paragraph is very interesting, but I interpret it differently. Let me try to explain it.
“Our black metal is… an utter and complete rejection of modernity. The ‘common sense’ principles of the enlightenment – ​​science, logic, rationality, humanism, reductionism, materialism – are revealed to be a sham. In the place of modern, liberal, democratic, capitalist society black metal demands that we return to a premodern modality.”
These words belonging to the members of Wolves In The Throne Room theorize the logic underlying black metal very strongly. This was the main tendency of the tradition of black metal in particular and extreme metal in general since the very beginning. First, extreme metal moved away from modernism, mainly in terms of vocals. When we look at the evolution of vocals in this style, we see that it is gradually approaching nature-animals, as opposed to humans, who are assumed to be the subject of civilization. Black metal in particular resembles some uncanny noises coming from snowy peaks of mountains and ancient forests. It is a hatred vomited against modernity. In this respect, it is positioned very close to the anarcho-primitivism understanding of writers like John Zerzan.
Despite all this, black metal’s musical break from modernism did not happen all at once. This situation came to the fore in the third period of the style and this is the main issue that gave Deathspell Omega its historical importance. Deathspell Omega was not the first but the strongest example of the tendency to break away from modernism in metal and with its trilogy, it signed an anti-modernist revolution.
So, to get to the point, I interpret the fact that extreme metal musicians hide their identities, do not give concerts, etc. as an extension of this attitude.

So there's a fundamentally regressive movement that doesn't wanna adopt the new trends in lots of cases and even rejects established ones outright, which also happens to be the movement which churns out the most metal music these days. Do you genuinely think this will be overtaken by AI?
----
You are the hammer, I am the nail
building a house in the fire on the hill
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12.10.2024 - 02:51
Emre Gorur
Written by Ivor on 11.10.2024 at 12:25

...

I don’t think there’s any point in talking about intentions. Of course, all artists produce to be noticed and appreciated by someone else. But we’re talking about everyone being able to produce music in seconds. Do you think that new professional musicians can emerge in an environment where tens of thousands of metal albums are released every day? The logic of the matter will completely change. We are considering possibilities like this: People tell the artificial intelligence applications they use when they get in their cars what kind of music they want to listen to during the journey, and the application creates an album influenced by Gamma Ray, for example. In this case, the artist is no longer human. Therefore, there can be no concern about being appreciated. In the article, I talk about the reincarnation of art.
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12.10.2024 - 03:21
Emre Gorur
Written by Desha on 11.10.2024 at 20:37

Be aware you're writing this on a metal forum, where people join to talk about which music they like. If art goes fully individual, people cannot talk about this stuff, robbing art of a lot of the appeal.

I am aware that the article may be seen as disturbing. I try to write theoretical articles by getting rid of ideological premises. In other words, my goaI is not to prove or demonstrate something I believe in. On the contrary, the chain of logic in the article creates its own consequences. I accept this, even if I don't like it. Otherwise, the writings would have no theoretical meaning.

Written by Desha on 11.10.2024 at 20:37

So there's a fundamentally regressive movement that doesn't wanna adopt the new trends in lots of cases and even rejects established ones outright, which also happens to be the movement which churns out the most metal music these days. Do you genuinely think this will be overtaken by AI?

Yes, but I totally disagree with the term “fundamentally regressive movement”.
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20.10.2024 - 23:26
poring dark
When I look at this example

Written by Emre Gorur on 12.10.2024 at 02:51

We are considering possibilities like this: People tell the artificial intelligence applications they use when they get in their cars what kind of music they want to listen to during the journey, and the application creates an album influenced by Gamma Ray, for example. In this case, the artist is no longer human.

I think I understand a bit better where this

Written by Emre Gorur on 11.10.2024 at 12:08

According to my expectation, the individualization of music will gradually eliminate the interest in the music produced by others. After a certain point, people should logically produce for themselves, not to upload to platforms on the internet. After all, we are talking about music that will be produced in seconds.

is coming from.

But: there seems to be a contradiction on who is creating the art. In one case it is the AI being the artist (generating/producing the music) but then it is the human producing the music by telling the AI what they want to hear. So they are the artist by virtue of having given certain prompts?

I wouldn't consider either output as art, but music being produced as a commodity.


As to:

Written by Emre Gorur on 12.10.2024 at 02:51

I don’t think there’s any point in talking about intentions. Of course, all artists produce to be noticed and appreciated by someone else.

I would be interested in the basis for the "of course". I understand that the motivation of an artist is the will and wish and urge to create, and perhaps express themselves. Being noticed and appreciated is certainly an agreeable side effect, if it so happens.


.... and I can't figure out how to use the quotes properly...
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21.10.2024 - 00:47
Starvynth
i c deaf people
Staff
Written by poring dark on 20.10.2024 at 23:26

.... and I can't figure out how to use the quotes properly...

Yeah, quoting two different sources in one post can be tricky, but I hope I was able to fix that for you.
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signatures = SPAM
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21.10.2024 - 07:57
poring dark
Yes! Thank you very much, Starvynth!
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24.10.2024 - 20:59
Emre Gorur
Written by poring dark on 20.10.2024 at 23:26


[...] there seems to be a contradiction on who is creating the art. In one case it is the AI being the artist (generating/producing the music) but then it is the human producing the music by telling the AI what they want to hear. So they are the artist by virtue of having given certain prompts?

I wouldn't consider either output as art, but music being produced as a commodity.

You touched on a good point. Let me ask you a question. Do you think DJs are artists? I think we can compare producing music with AI to DJing. For example, like Dadabots' infinite technical death metal livestream, determining a general area for AI and leaving the creativity entirely to it is a situation close to radio DJing. At this point, it is difficult to talk about human artistry. However, when you give AI commands like "Compose a classic heavy metal song. Let it start with an acoustic intro in the style of Steve Harris, let it be reminiscent of Priest's 'Screaming for Vengeance' and 'Defenders of the Faith' era, let the choruses be like Running Wild", the situation becomes different. The human position is similar to club DJs. In this last case, it is theoretically possible for humans to produce art, in my opinion. It is like a craftsman who is not an artist by profession but can produce art.
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25.10.2024 - 08:42
poring dark
Written by Emre Gorur on 24.10.2024 at 20:59

Let me ask you a question. Do you think DJs are artists?

Oh, great question! - Gut feeling answer: no,I don't think they are. A more nuanced answer is that I can accept if someone else considers this as art, and even understand to some degree why they would our could do so. But I don't care enough for that sort of output to become involved.
Or...realizing as I write...I have not ever been or can imagine to be moved by a DJs creation in such a way or to such a degree that I would consider this art.
From creator's perspective, the creator's intent is what makes it art. From the recipient's perspective, it is (good, great, some) art, if it touches/moves/transforms you in some way. I believe these are my definitions of art.
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25.10.2024 - 19:16
Ivor
Staff
Took some time to read your stuff before coming back to it.

Written by Emre Gorur on 12.10.2024 at 02:51

But we’re talking about everyone being able to produce music in seconds. Do you think that new professional musicians can emerge in an environment where tens of thousands of metal albums are released every day? The logic of the matter will completely change.

I'm still not buying your argument for the sake of one-sidedness of its approach. History is full of examples that go both ways. When photography was invented painters were supposed to have been rendered obsolete, their services unnecessary. Yet, painting reinvented itself and in its original form as something done with paint and a brush by hand persists to this day and even manages to push boundaries in its contemporary forms. Not only has painting not lost its meaning, painters still produce meaningful contemporary art with it. It does just fine alongside photography and there's demand for both. When stereoscopy (stereo/3D photography) was invented giving people the first visual spatial immersive experience, the need for tourism was said to have become unnecessary. Yet, here we are, travelling more than ever, going to concerts and what not. Even video recordings and virtual reality haven't had any significant impact on this. It has pushed the boundaries on what is possible and how some things are done, yet it is hardly a total substitute for the actual multifaceted sensory experience and an in-person relationship evolving in time between the audience and the performer.

You mention DJs and Dadabots. Good avenue to further this discussion. Both are artists in their own right though not necessarily in the form you perceive or present them. In both cases it's the gesture and the form that matters, rather than the final tangible outcome. What Dadabots did was apply a scientific approach to creative process but it's also an artistic gesture posing questions that are up for debate, these here among others. It's what art does best - pose questions to us. The music is a side-effect of the process, art is that it became possible and the questions that stem from it. They have far more in common with the conceptual art movement than with producing actual music for everyday listening. The end result is a passable novelty perhaps. What matters is the novel idea in its conceptual form rather than the actual music. Likewise for DJs. It's not what but how, the approach, the journey and the experience rather than the destination. It's how you apply your ideas and skills to produce an expansive experience evolving in temporal dimension that's artistry.

There's a fine line between art and craft. Not every stage performance is performance art nor every DJ an artist. You can use AI to craft yourself something to listen to but it will take an artist to add meaning to the gesture. AI revolution in its immediate form will produce a lot of craftsmen who are able to produce content to specification devoid of grander conceptual meaning that is the basis for artistry. You describe the situation in an absolutist form and suggest that the musician-listener relationship is solely driven by the consuming side which, while true from the economic perspective, is probably hardly this from the creative side. Mass-production of music and visual content may move towards artificial and will make it hard for the creative people to make money in the industry. But to state that a form of art will disappear completely because of AI is hardly reasonable. It will push the boundary of what is possible, which questions are posed and how they are expressed but the demand for human art and music will remain, even if it's produced with the help of AI. I can't find it off the bat but recently there was a research done that found that human brain was far more stimulated in the presence of a real work of art than in the presence off its printed replica. Not saying it's conclusive but the researchers may be on to something there with it. It might yet prove to be a very relevant field of research in the near future with all the advances in AI and the existential questions that it brings.

I.
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29.10.2024 - 10:44
Emre Gorur
Written by Ivor on 25.10.2024 at 19:16


[...]

In the article, I talk about musicians and listeners coming together at the grassroots level and the increasing importance of concerts and festivals. While the music industry is shrinking, the concert sector still seems to be growing. Concerts are the main source of income for musicians.
I don’t think this will completely disappear. I have no concerns that we will preserve our festival culture as much as possible as a community. In other words, I don’t claim that everyone will make music on their phones, there will be no real bands left, and concerts will disappear. After all, changes in eras don’t happen this way. The reality of the past also preserves itself to a certain extent. For example, I don’t have a membership to any streaming platform and I don’t plan on changing this unless I have to. The download and streaming eras didn’t eliminate physical album sales either. Many people still collect records.
What I am trying to express is the possibility of a radical change in the music industry. This is the determining factor. In 40-50 years, some people will still form music bands, summer festivals will probably continue in some way, but the conditions will be significantly different. When existing bands disappear, it doesn't seem possible to me that new names will be able to organize tours on their own. The development of applications and the increase in the quality of music produced in this way will diminish the importance given to live band music, especially in the eyes of new generations who will not have our value judgments.
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29.10.2024 - 11:36
Ivor
Staff
Written by Emre Gorur on 29.10.2024 at 10:44

What I am trying to express is the possibility of a radical change in the music industry. This is the determining factor. In 40-50 years, some people will still form music bands, summer festivals will probably continue in some way, but the conditions will be significantly different. When existing bands disappear, it doesn't seem possible to me that new names will be able to organize tours on their own. The development of applications and the increase in the quality of music produced in this way will diminish the importance given to live band music, especially in the eyes of new generations who will not have our value judgments.

This is the line of reasoning that I don't follow and to me there's gap you gloss over there. I don't see how by proposing this radical change you can go from generating music to eliminating the music production industry to discarding music performing industry at the same time. Yes, they are intertwined but ultimately serve a different purpose from the listener's point of view. The advent of cinema did not kill off theatre nor did it make theatre performers any less valued and respected than cinema actors. And despite being able to watch movies also at home or on your phone, the need for live theatre remains. The artificially generated music, no matter how good, while can be a stand-in for your private listening, it is by no means a substitute for the multifaceted live experience that I mentioned previously. As a side note here, people don't go to summer festivals just because of the bands but for the whole extensive experience that goes with it, travels and socialising included. Something else even more radical has to happen to kill off the live industry or diminish its reach. And it's not just virtual reality and holographic projections that we talk about here. As i said, the human connection has to be completely factored out of the equation. For what it's worth, I see climate change, expense of travelling, political situation, and even corporate greed doing more harm to it in the near future than anything artificial.

I.
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05.11.2024 - 00:06
nikarg
Staff
It took me a while, but I finally read this all, along with the comments. I have to say that the reference to Anaal Nathrakh and to what has become one of my favourite albums ever (Endarkenment) wins you extra points in my book, Emre. On a more serious note, this is a very interesting article to read, and a good starting point for discussion. In all fairness, I haven't got the slightest idea about what AI will do to music, but I can tell you one thing for certain: I have no interest whatsoever to give prompts and have a machine create music for me to listen to. It could be the fact that I am a dinosaur, but I want a musician to create the music for me to enjoy it. I want the live shows, I want to talk to others about it, I want the whole experience. The future is shaping up to be contactless/inhuman, especially after Covid, but I am planning to resist for as long as possible and insist on going to the cashier in the supermarket, rather than scan my own groceries.
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