Written by [user id=4365] on 09.11.2013 at 00:41

But as you have highlighted by suggesting that much of prog uses dissonant chords, and that I have suggested in that Glorior Belli are not a dissonant band despite containing some dissonant chords, that just because music contains dissonant chords does not necessarily make the band in question dissonant as a whole. "Dissonant metal" may always make use of dissonant chords, and if that is correct then there is no better name for this list, as all bands here both subscribe to your definitions of dissonant metal by containing musical dissonance and my and mz's definition of a broader, descriptive conceptualised version of dissonance that makes use of its other, perhaps better known, definition. I just want to make it clear that while dissonant metal as we know it here may be incumbent on dissonant chord's presence as part of its make-up, it doesn't necessarily mean that the presence of dissonant chords instantly makes a band dissonant

No argument there except with regards to the title I'll explain that below.

Quote:

I'm not really sure exactly what point you're making. I agree with it though, that avant-garde metal containing musical dissonance would be described as harsh and inharmonious, but if lacking those qualities would likely be described as odd, unstructured etc. No doubt any avant-garde metal with a dissonant overtone would be perfect for this list. I don't think that's ever been in dispute.

What I was trying to point out is that this could be better described as "The Best Of "Dissonant" Avant-Garde Metal", since without the dissonance, it's simply avant-garde - or progressive in fewer cases - if you follow.

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Well, for me, the idea of controlled chaos is an oxymoron because once something is under control is no longer chaos. It does however work descriptively, visually etc. so If this list were called "Controlled Chaos" I would be ok with it but to me it would seem like a dumbing down of sorts of the title already in use as people like myself find a resonance of sort with the idea of dissonant metal, as opposed to chaotic metal which could encompass more things.

It sure is an oxymoron in essence, but here's what I meant: since structure is a purely subjective term musically, a case where one individual may insist on complete discord another might insist a subtle or even conspicuous order. I still think that without further clarification, the few musicians might confuse the premise of this list I think that the title I suggested above is fairly apt, although if mz really wanted he could title it "The Best Of Dissonant And Outwardly Unstructured Metal" (only a joke). I know no changes will be made but I'm all for discussion anyway

Written by mz on 09.11.2013 at 01:04

This has not been a pointless discussion up to now
I can understand that the concept of prog metal overlaps with some bands (perhaps most of them) here but I think this similarity is superficial. The intention of bands here is not same as most of prog metal acts and while I do not care about what bands think about their music when it comes to classification most of the time, this fact cannot be overlooked here. For instance, I believe that some of artists on this list use the type of dissonant that Joe and me are mostly concerned with as a way to make their music "darker" and not essentially making complex and "explicitly intelligent" music, as progressive metal is mostly known for. Additionally, dissonant music here does not need to be complex. For instance, Blut aus Nord's, which is one of the prominent and most influential dissonant bands is not a technically complex band and its frontman has clearly stated that he is not interested in technical approach. This contradicts with the cliche image of prog metal (which I hate). Furthermore, unusual structures which is most of the time exchanged with complexity, is only one of the trademarks of prog metal bands. Calling a band prog metal just because its songs have unusual structures is not true I guess. In the other words, these bands differ from progressive metal acts not only in the appearance of their music, but also in their approach and reason for dissonance. All in all, I'd say that these bands have more in common with avantgarde metal than progressive metal.
One more thing: I am sure that masses would not understand dissonant metal properly (referring to your reply to Joe). I've been accused to listening to "noise" when I was actually having regular, rather clean death metal and people around actually use words such as noise, discordant and even dissonant in order to insult my musical taste. Most of people outside of metal cannot properly hear different musical elements such as bass, drum, lead and rhythm guitar in extreme metal and distinguish them.

Despite how progressive metal is portrayed these days, it represents far more than what the average prog band exhibits. I personally think that the bands here are better depicted as avant-garde, but that term overlaps with progressive. Unusual structures is one of the fundamental aspects of progressive, coming from a prog fanatic Prog can be very simple and yet unusually structured. A band need not implement odd time signatures and technicality to be labelled as progressive, however avant-garde is more accurate classification with regard to these particular bands.

Also, I can understand that these bands' styles could be perceived as noisy or even discordant, but when the term dissonant is used, it implies several notions and for the sake of clarity it would be ideal to stick to discordant or incongruous, although that wouldn't make for part of an appealing title

Written by [user id=4365] on 09.11.2013 at 01:17

Also think most of Mories' projects could go on here too.

Definitely, although I can't imagine having to face the decision to select simply one album

Written by LeKiwi on 08.11.2013 at 21:34

Written by [user id=4365] on 08.11.2013 at 20:54

I've always shyed away from using the term chaotic, which to me invites the idea of randomness which is never the case with recorded music such as this. If it can be reproduced accurately by the band, say, live then it cannot be random.

The dictionary definition of "dissonance" only encompasses the musical definition, the other two being 1. Harsh and inharmonious in sound; discordant. and 2. Being at variance; disagreeing. Both of those terms I think highlight exactly what consituted "dissonant" metal. And, as you say, dissonant chords are probably a uniform constituent of dissonant metal bands as a description so I have no issue with using it. After all, this is the best of dissonant metal, not the best of metal with dissonant chords

The way you construe "dissonant metal" fits neatly into both progressive and avant-garde metal, encompassing concepts of incorporating elements from other genres; and utilising unconventional approaches to structure and chord progression. You wouldn't classify jazz that incorporates these elements as dissonant jazz when a more appropriate label would be avant-garde jazz. I understand the way you perceive "dissonant" music, but that concept is constituent of an existing genre.

I'm a bit late to the game, but...

No no no. I don't think a single person on Progarchives would actually agree with you on this statement.

Written by Diverge on 09.11.2013 at 05:07

I'm a bit late to the game, but...

No no no. I don't think a single person on Progarchives would actually agree with you on this statement.

Any evidence to support that?

Written by Diverge on 09.11.2013 at 05:07

Definition of progressive metal from ProgArchives:

This category represents the core movement of what is called "Progressive Metal" in the literal sense. It is a subgenre of progressive rock as much as it is a subgenre of heavy metal, and this is how its sound is defined: a blend of heavy, guitar-oriented metal music enriched with compositional innovation and complex arrangements, usually expressed through diverse instrumentation and often (but not always) with odd-time signatures. Common, but not essential to define the movement, are the frequent use of keyboards, high-pitched vocals, concept lyrical themes and tracks of longer duration. Similar to progressive rock, progressive metal draws influences from other genres, such as jazz/fusion, ethnic, classical and symphonic music.

Written by LeKiwi on 09.11.2013 at 05:14

Written by Diverge on 09.11.2013 at 05:07

Definition of progressive metal from ProgArchives:

This category represents the core movement of what is called "Progressive Metal" in the literal sense. It is a subgenre of progressive rock as much as it is a subgenre of heavy metal, and this is how its sound is defined: a blend of heavy, guitar-oriented metal music enriched with compositional innovation and complex arrangements, usually expressed through diverse instrumentation and often (but not always) with odd-time signatures. Common, but not essential to define the movement, are the frequent use of keyboards, high-pitched vocals, concept lyrical themes and tracks of longer duration. Similar to progressive rock, progressive metal draws influences from other genres, such as jazz/fusion, ethnic, classical and symphonic music.

OK but that definition clearly doesn't apply to many of the bands on this list.

I've opened up a can of worms and frankly I'm not really interested in this debate. I find it difficult to agree with Joe at times, but I think subsuming dissonant music inside prog/avant-garde is ignoring many of the qualities that exemplify the music mz has compiled nicely for us. Yes, we have bands like Gorguts that are groundbreaking, but we also have a few groups that, as he points out, don't really look to make complex compositions with diverse instrumentation and odd time signatures.

Written by Diverge on 09.11.2013 at 05:21

OK but that definition clearly doesn't apply to many of the bands on this list.

I've opened up a can of worms and frankly I'm not really interested in this debate. I find it difficult to agree with Joe at times, but I think subsuming dissonant music inside prog/avant-garde is ignoring many of the qualities that exemplify the music mz has compiled nicely for us. Yes, we have bands like Gorguts that are groundbreaking, but we also have a few groups that, as he points out, don't really look to make complex compositions with diverse instrumentation and odd time signatures.

Given that most of these bands use "compositional innovation", it certainly does; it is sufficient to fulfilled a one of the criteria in order to be considered progressive, as noted by the definition. However, since all of the elements that make up these bands' sounds are gathered from extreme metal and avant-garde alike, extreme avant-garde with an emphasis on dissonance is how I would accurately describe these bands. I suppose you could consider throwing in "atmospheric" or "noise" for more clarity, but as I don't know much about those sub-genres, I'm not going to press that matter Perhaps you weren't interested in this debate, but then you shouldn't have pressed "post reply"

Written by [user id=4365] on 09.11.2013 at 01:17

Also think most of Mories' projects could go on here too.

True. I initially wanted to add one or two of his albums but at the moment, I do not feel like doing so. The reason is that I haven't heard most of his works. For GTT, I am familiar with all of his LPs but that's not the case with most of band's EPs. Moreover, I just have checked one CoA and one aderlating album up to now. I still don't know which one of his albums best embodies the dissonance.
(Admittedly, for some of bands on this list, I am not familiar with their entire discography too. With Mories, I just feel that I'm a kid and have yet to dig deeper in his numerous projects)

Written by mz on 09.11.2013 at 15:10

True. I initially wanted to add one or two of his albums but at the moment, I do not feel like doing so. The reason is that I haven't heard most of his works. For GTT, I am familiar with all of his LPs but that's not the case with most of band's EPs. Moreover, I just have checked one CoA and one aderlating album up to now. I still don't know which one of his albums best embodies the dissonance.
(Admittedly, for some of bands on this list, I am not familiar with their entire discography too. With Mories, I just feel that I'm a kid and have yet to dig deeper in his numerous projects)

I'd say the best for this list would be something from De Magia Veterum. GTT is not always metal as such, CoA is clearly not as intense as De Magia, and Aderlating is even less metal than GTT.

Written by LeKiwi on 09.11.2013 at 02:54


What I was trying to point out is that this could be better described as "The Best Of "Dissonant" Avant-Garde Metal", since without the dissonance, it's simply avant-garde - or progressive in fewer cases - if you follow.

I don't really think that this title you suggested is apt. While most of bands here have taken huge influences form avantgarde metal and they show a level of avantgardism, putting emphasize on the avantgarde aspect of their music can be misleading. Some bands like unexpect and igorrr have been described as "chaotic avantgarde metal" and tbh, I find this description fairly suitable. Using "dissonant avantgarde metal" for bands on this list might cause people mistake them with mentioned bands. While there is a different between "dissonance" and "chaos", these terms have been used interchangeability sometimes.

Guys, for some reasons behind my hand, I would not be able to post replays here for maybe one or two days. It is really awkward and I'm sorry for it. You keep on the discussion if you want and I will try to be back ASAP. Hope that you do not consider this disrespectful

Forget my previous post for a moment

Written by LeKiwi on 09.11.2013 at 03:15


Despite how progressive metal is portrayed these days, it represents far more than what the average prog band exhibits. I personally think that the bands here are better depicted as avant-garde, but that term overlaps with progressive. Unusual structures is one of the fundamental aspects of progressive, coming from a prog fanatic Prog can be very simple and yet unusually structured. A band need not implement odd time signatures and technicality to be labelled as progressive, however avant-garde is more accurate classification with regard to these particular bands.

No disagreement here.

Quote:

Also, I can understand that these bands' styles could be perceived as noisy or even discordant, but when the term dissonant is used, it implies several notions and for the sake of clarity it would be ideal to stick to discordant or incongruous, although that wouldn't make for part of an appealing title

Despite the fact that I think most of people familiar with bans like DsO and BaN will understand what I exactly meant by the title,I will add a few sentences to the description in order to settle this problem.

Quote:

... However, since all of the elements that make up these bands' sounds are gathered from extreme metal and avant-garde alike, extreme avant-garde with an emphasis on dissonance is how I would accurately describe these bands.

While most, but not all of bands here are extreme in nature, I will have no problem with adding more non-extreme bands which, for instance, sound like virus or yurrei ( I even have hard time considering terra tenebrosa as an extreme act). I even dare say that since dissonance ( in the form which is the main concept of this list) is more common in extreme metal, I am more interested in discovering non-extreme dissonant bands . Using "extreme avant-garde with an emphasis on dissonance" perhaps would not be proper for bands that I might add in future (and some bands which are already here, as I stated before)

Written by mz on 09.11.2013 at 16:22

While most, but not all of bands here are extreme in nature, I will have no problem with adding more non-extreme bands which, for instance, sound like virus or yurrei ( I even have hard time considering terra tenebrosa as an extreme act). I even dare say that since dissonance ( in the form which is the main concept of this list) is more common in extreme metal, I am more interested in discovering non-extreme dissonant bands . Using "extreme avant-garde with an emphasis on dissonance" perhaps would not be proper for bands that I might add in future (and some bands which are already here, as I stated before)

Quote:

I don't really think that this title you suggested is apt. While most of bands here have taken huge influences form avantgarde metal and they show a level of avantgardism, putting emphasize on the avantgarde aspect of their music can be misleading. Some bands like unexpect and igorrr have been described as "chaotic avantgarde metal" and tbh, I find this description fairly suitable. Using "dissonant avantgarde metal" for bands on this list might cause people mistake them with mentioned bands. While there is a different between "dissonance" and "chaos", these terms have been used interchangeability sometimes.

Then perhaps simply ignore the extreme elements and employ dissonant avant-garde metal instead Avant-garde can take any form as long as it fills the criteria; thus avant-garde encompasses a substantial range of styles and, as such, there is no exemplary avant-garde band or style. I would simply describe these bands as avant-garde or extreme avant-garde, however, for the purpose of utter clarity and this list's premise, I would place dissonant as a prefix. I think these bands place an equal emphasis on both their avant-garde elements and the use of musical dissonance, perhaps slightly more so towards the latter.

Written by LeKiwi on 09.11.2013 at 17:10

Then perhaps simply ignore the extreme elements and employ dissonant avant-garde metal instead Avant-garde can take any form as long as it fills the criteria; thus avant-garde encompasses a substantial range of styles and, as such, there is no exemplary avant-garde band or style. I would simply describe these bands as avant-garde or extreme avant-garde, however, for the purpose of utter clarity and this list's premise, I would place dissonant as a prefix. I think these bands place an equal emphasis on both their avant-garde elements and the use of musical dissonance, perhaps slightly more so towards the latter.

There is no need for utter clarity, only to you. No one else has popped up saying that the list is misleading so it's pure speculation to say that other musicians will take issue with this list. A few seconds investigation is more than enough for most people. This is not a dissertation that requires a perfect summary in the title; it is a list that has an interesting and evocative title. That's enough for most people. To labour this point any further is discursive and moot. There is nothing wrong with the title, it does not need to allude to anything related to avant-garde metal.

Written by [user id=4365] on 09.11.2013 at 18:14

There is no need for utter clarity, only to you. No one else has popped up saying that the list is misleading so it's pure speculation to say that other musicians will take issue with this list. A few seconds investigation is more than enough for most people. This is not a dissertation that requires a perfect summary in the title; it is a list that has an interesting and evocative title. That's enough for most people. To labour this point any further is discursive and moot. There is nothing wrong with the title, it does not need to allude to anything related to avant-garde metal.

I think other musicians would disagree Also while the title serves the masses, further clarification is harmless

Added "Azoic - Gateways". Will probably add more death metal in future.

Written by LeKiwi on 09.11.2013 at 17:10


Then perhaps simply ignore the extreme elements and employ dissonant avant-garde metal instead Avant-garde can take any form as long as it fills the criteria; thus avant-garde encompasses a substantial range of styles and, as such, there is no exemplary avant-garde band or style. I would simply describe these bands as avant-garde or extreme avant-garde, however, for the purpose of utter clarity and this list's premise, I would place dissonant as a prefix. I think these bands place an equal emphasis on both their avant-garde elements and the use of musical dissonance, perhaps slightly more so towards the latter.

I edited the description for further clarification but the title would stay unchanged. I think for most people familiar with some of these bands, the title is not misleading.

+1 for Brown Jenkins. Of course BAN is great, and also Virus and Yurei (which you recommended), but with most of these I'm unfamiliar. Seems I have some work to do then.

As for my recommendations:
- Aarni - Bathos
- Dolorian - When All the Laughter Has Gone/Voidwards

Sorry, that's all I can come up with for these kind of albums. But those definitely qualify for this list. I really like these 3 albums a lot. I'm not sure whether you'll enjoy Aarni (avantgarde doom with folk influences), but I'm pretty sure you'll enjoy Dolorian (avantgarde/psychedelic blackened doom) a lot. I feel they are perfect for this list and I'm surprised they aren't on it already.

There is no dissonance in either Aarni or Dolorian

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 10.11.2013 at 00:45

There is no dissonance in either Aarni or Dolorian

Oh, my bad then. Honestly, I'm not even sure what it means exactly.

Written by Erik M. on 10.11.2013 at 00:36

+1 for Brown Jenkins. Of course BAN is great, and also Virus and Yurei (which you recommended), but with most of these I'm unfamiliar. Seems I have some work to do then.

Tnx .
You have not check DsO yet? XD

Written by Erik M. on 10.11.2013 at 00:42

As for my recommendations:
- Aarni - Bathos
- Dolorian - When All the Laughter Has Gone/Voidwards

Sorry, that's all I can come up with for these kind of albums. But those definitely qualify for this list. I really like these 3 albums a lot. I'm not sure whether you'll enjoy Aarni (avantgarde doom with folk influences), but I'm pretty sure you'll enjoy Dolorian (avantgarde/psychedelic blackened doom) a lot. I feel they are perfect for this list and I'm surprised they aren't on it already.

I have Aarani. Got it for avant doom tag it has. Will check it ASAP. Regarding Dolorian , well, I am trying to download some of their albums for a while now. Have not listened to them yet.
Thanks for suggestions

Written by mz on 10.11.2013 at 00:53

Tnx .
You have not check DsO yet? XD

Nope... I have so little time these days.

Quote:

I have Aarani. Got it for avant doom tag it has. Will check it ASAP. Regarding Dolorian , well, I am trying to download some of their albums for a while now. Have not listened to them yet.
Thanks for suggestions

Good to know. Even though Marcel might be right, you can still decide for yourself whether they belong here or not. And if they don't, then you at least discovered great music, because I know your taste and as I said I'm pretty sure you'll like if not love Dolorian. I personally think it's fantastic music.

Written by mz on 08.11.2013 at 20:35

I was going to mention that I am not familiar with the theoretical definition of dissonant music in description and forgot this because I was in urge to piss when I was making the list.

Rule #5 when it comes to creating lists: "Always piss before starting with the creation of a list".

Written by Erik M. on 10.11.2013 at 00:55

Good to know. Even though Marcel might be right, you can still decide for yourself whether they belong here or not. And if they don't, then you at least discovered great music, because I know your taste and as I said I'm pretty sure you'll like if not love Dolorian. I personally think it's fantastic music.

seemingly, Aarani belongs to the circle of friends which gave us virus and yurei, I would not be surprised if Aarani is really dissonant.
Regarding Dolorian, yeah, I personally think that I would like it based on what people say. We shall see.

Written by Erik M. on 10.11.2013 at 01:07

Rule #5 when it comes to creating lists: "Always piss before starting with the creation of a list".

And what are the first four rules?

Written by mz on 10.11.2013 at 16:31


And what are the first four rules?

Hahaha, not a clue. I just thought it was funny to call it rule #5 instead of #1.

Rule #3: Make you title perfectly precise and accurate for the sake of LeKiwi