Written by MelancholiaC on 25.09.2015 at 02:25

I think the ultimate rule of thumb is just to take any rating, including your own, with a grain of salt. Don't obsessed over any such list too much and remember music is not a sport or academic test; ratings and lists are ultimately futile and pointless in "measuring quality". Use them to introduce yourself to some music that is generally considered "good" - that's pretty much the only reason I look at the top albums lists.

Good comment.
I usually like to read people's list to find whose list is closer to my taste and pick the albums suggested from there, most of the time those suggestions can save a lot of my time from self-exploration. Sometimes I condemned some lists are copied and lacking of sincerity but didn't involve any malicious intention.

Written by MelancholiaC on 25.09.2015 at 02:25

As for the general trend of rating decline, I don't at all agree that it truly reflects a decay in the quality of new releases each year. For example, I think many would agree with me that 2015 easily kicks 2014's ass musically, but the ratings of top albums continue to decline; personally, my top favourite album of 2014 wouldn't even make it to my top 10 for this year, and there are still 3 months of highly anticipated releases to go!

We're talking about things happened in the past 10 years or even longer NOT 1 year.

Written by Moose on 25.09.2015 at 06:41

Are you saying that you think the rating decline is simply due to worsening quality of music?
- YES.

The fundamental assumption of this list is that musical quality remains relatively consistent over time. So if you believe this to be untrue, then I suppose the list/calculation would seem illogical.
- YES, quality declined

I think there is enough evidence to suggest something else is going on. Metalstorm was only launched in 2000, so I find it difficult to believe that the albums released in say 2000-2005 were subject to the same scrutiny and voting conditions as those of recent years. The calculation I've used is an admittedly 'rough' method of accounting for this.
- Time is not the main concern as members here are still constantly listening and rating those back releases, ironically not many metal fans really take many new releases seriously. Why ? quality declined in music quality (talking about all genres, not only metal)

I was perhaps hasty in labeling it as 'voting abuse', as Metalstorm seem to do a decent job of removing wrongdoers.
- Metalstorm was wrong if they did so

I haven't singled out individual albums. I have factored the albums based on the average of the year they were released.
I'm not even a fan of Agalloch, but they are number 1 on the list. My musical tastes didn't have any influence.
- "Factoring" is considered a kind of "manipulation", you tried to make influence in your own way... Don't sell cowboys Ferrari, life doesn't work in that way

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 25.09.2015 at 08:48

Written by Moose on 25.09.2015 at 06:41

Are you saying that you think the rating decline is simply due to worsening quality of music?
- YES.

The fundamental assumption of this list is that musical quality remains relatively consistent over time. So if you believe this to be untrue, then I suppose the list/calculation would seem illogical.
- YES, quality declined

Look, I'm thinking you're new to this concept. The discussion has been going on for a long time on the forums, and I think most have dismissed the idea that it is caused purely by reducing musical quality.
This isn't a perfect system, but most seem to agree it is closer to the truth than if you were to simply look at the raw ratings.
Have a scan through the forums, read comments above, do some research. That's all I can suggest, because it doesn't seem like it's worth my time discussing this with someone so closed-minded on the topic.

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 25.09.2015 at 08:48

Written by Moose on 25.09.2015 at 06:41

I was perhaps hasty in labeling it as 'voting abuse', as Metalstorm seem to do a decent job of removing wrongdoers.
- Metalstorm was wrong if they did so

Why? Is it not reasonable to remove someone who makes multiple accounts purely to hit bands they don't like with 1's?

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 25.09.2015 at 08:27

Sometimes I condemned some lists are copied and lacking of sincerity but didn't involve any malicious intention.

Have you already realized that there are people who make lists for themselves and not for others? So copying and pasting is absolutely OK and I don't give a damn about the opinion of others about MY lists. Regarding your vote-abuse standpoint, I would say from the many posts that I have read that probably 98% of MS members have a different one. Also your observation that the quality of metal music is declining is very "personal". Study the vote distribution of different albums in the charts and you can see other causes for the decline. So generating this list was absolutely great and Moose never claimed that this list is the "correct" list. It's just another point of view onto the charts.

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Written by Nihil Aeternum on 26.09.2015 at 16:37

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 25.09.2015 at 08:27

Sometimes I condemned some lists are copied and lacking of sincerity but didn't involve any malicious intention.

Have you already realized that there are people who make lists for themselves and not for others? So copying and pasting is absolutely OK and I don't give a damn about the opinion of others about MY lists.

Your claim is very contradictory. If those lists are for themselves (personal) then they should keep those lists in their computer for personal use.
Copying and Pasting is wasting of internet resources.
You don't give a damn ? If everybody don't give a damn like you then this category should be considered redundant and MS should delete this category.

Regarding your vote-abuse standpoint, I would say from the many posts that I have read that probably 98% of MS members have a different one. Also your observation that the quality of metal music is declining is very "personal".

YES. This is my point, all comments are personal...don't try to "correct it".

Study the vote distribution of different albums in the charts and you can see other causes for the decline. So generating this list was absolutely great and Moose never claimed that this list is the "correct" list. It's just another point of view onto the charts.

Study the causes ? No way, is this a climate problems ? Psychologically it's beyong your capability in music. When you apply a formula indicates you're trying to "rectify" something which deemed was wrong in your point of view.

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 28.09.2015 at 09:04

Study the causes ? No way, is this a climate problems ? Psychologically it's beyong your capability in music. When you apply a formula indicates you're trying to "rectify" something which deemed was wrong in your point of view.

Please prove how musical quality is "declining." Please prove how "ironically not many metal fans really take many new releases seriously." I disagree; music is as good as it ever was, and in fact better in many cases. Stop trying to "rectify" such opinions with baseless blanket statements because it was deemed "wrong" in your point of view. "Psychologically" it is beyond your ability to prove to me that music is worse than it was because that is down to my taste in music. Ergo, your argument is fatally flawed and your premise entirely faulty.

That being said, patterns in vote abuse are officially recognised on this site. This is how nefarious votes are nuked and vote abusers banned. There is a line of simple common sense followed, which goes far beyond any subjective notions of personal taste. People who vote are agreeing to partake in a scale of representation. While one may like or dislike something, handing out only 10s and 1s to numerous albums is a deliberate manipulation of said representation. That level of binary thought is simply not present in humans. Defending people who do this is not defending someone's "personal" rights or proclivities because their tastes aren't being questioned, only how they promote their tastes in keeping with the scale in which everyone else uses, and largely adheres to in a vaguely defined way. I say "vaguely" because there is still plenty of room in how one votes. Only the extreme voters are removed.

You need to stop trying to "change" people. Stop putting your personal points of view onto others and telling them they're wrong. Moose has attempted to approach this subject in an impartial way that does not favour any specific bands (despite what you originally attempted to allude, Moose is not trying to manipulate the numbers in his own favour so your inference of the parallel of voting abuse is entirely incorrect; a false equivalence fallacy. Analysis is not "manipulation" on the scale of vote abuse). He is looking for tangible patterns. You on the other hand use entirely subjective, personal notions as evidence. It's extremely poor behaviour. You should at least respect the transparency of this list, instead of pushing your own, personal, agenda onto him, i.e. I believe that music quality has declined, so you should too. Or, I believe that metallers don't take modern metal seriously, so you should too. These ideas are impossible to substantiate, not to mention that they are unpopular with critical thinkers and the general populace. Moose's voting pattern discoveries on the other hand are a form of evidence, so they immediately negate your mere opinions. You need to recognise this and stop being self-centred.

Written by [user id=4365] on 28.09.2015 at 11:15

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 28.09.2015 at 09:04

Study the causes ? No way, is this a climate problems ? Psychologically it's beyong your capability in music. When you apply a formula indicates you're trying to "rectify" something which deemed was wrong in your point of view.

Please prove how musical quality is "declining." Please prove how "ironically not many metal fans really take many new releases seriously." I disagree; music is as good as it ever was, and in fact better in many cases. Stop trying to "rectify" such opinions with baseless blanket statements because it was deemed "wrong" in your point of view. "Psychologically" it is beyond your ability to prove to me that music is worse than it was because that is down to my taste in music. Ergo, your argument is fatally flawed and your premise entirely faulty.

That being said, patterns in vote abuse are officially recognised on this site. This is how nefarious votes are nuked and vote abusers banned. There is a line of simple common sense followed, which goes far beyond any subjective notions of personal taste. People who vote are agreeing to partake in a scale of representation. While one may like or dislike something, handing out only 10s and 1s to numerous albums is a deliberate manipulation of said representation. That level of binary thought is simply not present in humans. Defending people who do this is not defending someone's "personal" rights or proclivities because their tastes aren't being questioned, only how they promote their tastes in keeping with the scale in which everyone else uses, and largely adheres to in a vaguely defined way. I say "vaguely" because there is still plenty of room in how one votes. Only the extreme voters are removed.

You need to stop trying to "change" people. Stop putting your personal points of view onto others and telling them they're wrong. Moose has attempted to approach this subject in an impartial way that does not favour any specific bands (despite what you originally attempted to allude, Moose is not trying to manipulate the numbers in his own favour so your inference of the parallel of voting abuse is entirely incorrect; a false equivalence fallacy. Analysis is not "manipulation" on the scale of vote abuse). He is looking for tangible patterns. You on the other hand use entirely subjective, personal notions as evidence. It's extremely poor behaviour. You should at least respect the transparency of this list, instead of pushing your own, personal, agenda onto him, i.e. I believe that music quality has declined, so you should too. Or, I believe that metallers don't take modern metal seriously, so you should too. These ideas are impossible to substantiate, not to mention that they are unpopular with critical thinkers and the general populace. Moose's voting pattern discoveries on the other hand are a form of evidence, so they immediately negate your mere opinions. You need to recognise this and stop being self-centred.

You basically repeated all my comments and made them yours, twisting and turning is definitely your style.
- I'm not going to "REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN...".
All comments are personal, change your own comments/ ratings but not others'...Making your own rules/ formulas to "redefine" other people's thoughts/ ratings is just irrational and laughable. When there is a 1 (rating) in the rating system but prohibiting people using it is totally extreme. Stop calling people a troll if they're not having the same thought

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 28.09.2015 at 12:12

You basically repeated all my comments and made them yours, twisting and turning is definitely your style.
- I'm not going to "REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN...".
All comments are personal, change your own comments/ ratings but not others'...Making your own rules/ formulas to "redefine" other people's thoughts/ ratings is just irrational and laughable. When there is a 1 (rating) in the rating system but prohibiting people using it is totally extreme. Stop calling people a troll if they're not having the same thought

People are more than free to use the "1" option. I don't know where you got the idea otherwise. Stop manipulating the facts to suit your agenda.

Cultural norms and mathematical processes are not really "personal." Denouncing a scientific approach to something with "metallers don't take modern metal seriously!" is a bit like saying you agree with the anti-vaccine stance because you like Jim Carrey's films.

I champion logical thought processes that are supported by valid evidence or thought out, considered arguments. I adhere to a group aesthetic where established, proven paradigms of intellectual thought and historical prevalence dominate, i.e. a bit like when someone has dolled-out a 10 to one album and twenty 1s to a bunch of other 2015 albums and realise they might not be totally genuine. I don't respect special little snowflakes that think they can rewrite the rulebook and go "Look at me, I'm different!" and expect to have that same degree of respect. I don't like selfish, self-absorbed people who don't have the capacity to learn and adapt. Sorry.

Written by [user id=4365] on 28.09.2015 at 12:23

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 28.09.2015 at 12:12

You basically repeated all my comments and made them yours, twisting and turning is definitely your style.
- I'm not going to "REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN...".
All comments are personal, change your own comments/ ratings but not others'...Making your own rules/ formulas to "redefine" other people's thoughts/ ratings is just irrational and laughable. When there is a 1 (rating) in the rating system but prohibiting people using it is totally extreme. Stop calling people a troll if they're not having the same thought

People are more than free to use the "1" option. I don't know where you got the idea otherwise. Stop manipulating the facts to suit your agenda.

Cultural norms and mathematical processes are not really "personal." Denouncing a scientific approach to something with "metallers don't take modern metal seriously!" is a bit like saying you agree with the anti-vaccine stance because you like Jim Carrey's films.

I champion logical thought processes that are supported by valid evidence or thought out, considered arguments. I adhere to a group aesthetic where established, proven paradigms of intellectual thought and historical prevalence dominate, i.e. a bit like when someone has dolled-out a 10 to one album and 20 1s to a bunch of 2015 albums and realise they might not be totally genuine. I don't respect special little snowflakes that think they can rewrite the rulebook and go "Look at me, I'm different!" and expect to have that same degree of respect. I don't like selfish, self-absorbed people who don't have the capacity to learn and adapt. Sorry.

You did know what I liked (Jim Carrey), thanks...but stop following me... ';D' , and also stop imaging things... no one thinks he's different because of liking what the rest don't. Believing their ratings, stop imagine trolls are everyehere is what you've to do ! Your problem is "Thinking Too Much", probably due to playing too much video games...always have to think whare is the next moster after killing this one...

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 28.09.2015 at 13:13

You did know what I liked (Jim Carrey), thanks...but stop following me... ';D' , and also stop imaging things... no one thinks he's different because of liking what the rest don't. Believing their ratings, stop imagine trolls are everyehere is what you've to do ! Your problem is "Thinking Too Much", probably due to playing too much video games...always have to think whare is the next moster after killing this one...

I prefer to actually "think" than mindlessly assume that everyone is genuine, because that's not even remotely the sort of world we live in and if you think otherwise then you are naive to the point of ignorance. I bet you think Robert Mugabe is a legitimately, democratically elected President I've seen the rating abuse with my own eyes hundreds of times. If I'm imagining it I must be in the midst of a group hallucination because you're the first Vote Abuse Denier (worth capitalising) I've ever seen on this site. I'd much rather think too much than not at all.

Written by [user id=4365] on 28.09.2015 at 13:17

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 28.09.2015 at 13:13

You did know what I liked (Jim Carrey), thanks...but stop following me... ';D' , and also stop imaging things... no one thinks he's different because of liking what the rest don't. Believing their ratings, stop imagine trolls are everyehere is what you've to do ! Your problem is "Thinking Too Much", probably due to playing too much video games...always have to think whare is the next moster after killing this one...

I prefer to actually "think" than mindlessly assume that everyone is genuine, because that's not even remotely the sort of world we live in and if you think otherwise then you are naive to the point of ignorance. I bet you think Robert Mugabe is a legitimately, democratically elected President I've seen the rating abuse with my own eyes hundreds of times. If I'm imagining it I must be in the midst of a group hallucination because you're the first Vote Abuse Denier (worth capitalising) I've ever seen on this site. I'd much rather think too much than not at all.

Yap, you Metal Pastor, those abusers confessed to you after they've abused their votes, that's why you've seen with your own eyes hundreds of times, great ! I've nothing to say..., please accept my worship

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 28.09.2015 at 13:35

Yap, you Metal Pastor, those abusers confessed to you after they've abused their votes, that's why you've seen with your own eyes hundreds of times, great ! I've nothing to say..., please accept my worship

I don't want your worship. A modicum of common sense would be enough. But once again you fall back on sarcasm and evasion and then run away. I'm still waiting for you to prove how music is getting worse, and that metallers take modern music less seriously. You haven't explained that yet. Moose's methodology in his list is very clear. You owe it to him to be clear too, instead of your special snowflake, Vote Abuse Denier non-arguments.

Incidentally many, many vote abusers have been caught out via their IP address from having multiple accounts. Something you probably didn't consider. Maybe I know this is because "I think too much." Maybe you should play some video games. Video games have been proven in helping strategic thinking, as well as maintaining mental health.

Normally I'd just grab my popcorn but instead I must say... Coming here and saying "vote abusing ins't occurring" seems typical of a guy who doesn't get what's going on. Like he hasn't read the discussions here and there all over the site. For instance Joe just mentioned about multiple accounts being created with the sole purpose of voting for the top albums of the year. believing that different people over the world actually created their accounts at the same day and voted the same way for the same albums and then never logged in again since that same day seems a bit naive imo... (unless you have an explanation for it (?))
And what Moose said is correct. MS didn't suffer from this "disease" when it was not that big.

That being said, Moose's idea of factoring seems well based. He just created a list for factoring the votes, taking the vote abuse he believes is occurring into consideration. Therefore the list is not "absurd" or anything.

If you believe the quality of metal has decreased and vote abusing isn't occurring on MS it would be better to actually show your arguments on which you base your thoughs instead of depreciating the guy's effort...

Man, it must be real bad if it gets Karlabos to stop eating popcorn and speak his mind.

I got you covered bro.

Written by [user id=4365] on 28.09.2015 at 11:15

Written by Dr. Strawberry on 28.09.2015 at 09:04

Study the causes ? No way, is this a climate problems ? Psychologically it's beyong your capability in music. When you apply a formula indicates you're trying to "rectify" something which deemed was wrong in your point of view.

Please prove how musical quality is "declining." Please prove how "ironically not many metal fans really take many new releases seriously." I disagree; music is as good as it ever was, and in fact better in many cases. Stop trying to "rectify" such opinions with baseless blanket statements because it was deemed "wrong" in your point of view. "Psychologically" it is beyond your ability to prove to me that music is worse than it was because that is down to my taste in music. Ergo, your argument is fatally flawed and your premise entirely faulty.

That being said, patterns in vote abuse are officially recognised on this site. This is how nefarious votes are nuked and vote abusers banned. There is a line of simple common sense followed, which goes far beyond any subjective notions of personal taste. People who vote are agreeing to partake in a scale of representation. While one may like or dislike something, handing out only 10s and 1s to numerous albums is a deliberate manipulation of said representation. That level of binary thought is simply not present in humans. Defending people who do this is not defending someone's "personal" rights or proclivities because their tastes aren't being questioned, only how they promote their tastes in keeping with the scale in which everyone else uses, and largely adheres to in a vaguely defined way. I say "vaguely" because there is still plenty of room in how one votes. Only the extreme voters are removed.

You need to stop trying to "change" people. Stop putting your personal points of view onto others and telling them they're wrong. Moose has attempted to approach this subject in an impartial way that does not favour any specific bands (despite what you originally attempted to allude, Moose is not trying to manipulate the numbers in his own favour so your inference of the parallel of voting abuse is entirely incorrect; a false equivalence fallacy. Analysis is not "manipulation" on the scale of vote abuse). He is looking for tangible patterns. You on the other hand use entirely subjective, personal notions as evidence. It's extremely poor behaviour. You should at least respect the transparency of this list, instead of pushing your own, personal, agenda onto him, i.e. I believe that music quality has declined, so you should too. Or, I believe that metallers don't take modern metal seriously, so you should too. These ideas are impossible to substantiate, not to mention that they are unpopular with critical thinkers and the general populace. Moose's voting pattern discoveries on the other hand are a form of evidence, so they immediately negate your mere opinions. You need to recognise this and stop being self-centred.

Wow, if there would be a rating for posts, I would give 10 out of 10 for this one. Very well said! However, reading God Buster (Ghost)'s silly posts, I think that reacting to them might not be worth your time unless you want to do something against your low blood pressure. I will ignore him in the future.

Written by Nihil Aeternum on 28.09.2015 at 22:42

Wow, if there would be a rating for posts, I would give 10 out of 10 for this one. Very well said! However, reading God Buster (Ghost)'s silly posts, I think that reacting to them might not be worth your time unless you want to do something against your low blood pressure. I will ignore him in the future.

Thanks, and yeah you're right. I've had many run ins with him before and that's advice I should take. He's a contrarian and little more. One of the least respectful MS users.

Written by [user id=4365] on 28.09.2015 at 22:50

One of the least respected MS users.

Fixed.

But I guess it works both ways.

Written by Zap on 28.09.2015 at 23:16

Fixed.

But I guess it works both ways.

It's definitely a two way street in his case. I guess there's always one in a pack.

Written by Zap on 28.09.2015 at 21:27

Man, it must be real bad if it gets Karlabos to stop eating popcorn and speak his mind.

(Don't tell anyone but that occurred because I actually read the posts this time, so I had something to say)

There's two Persefone albums on the list.

I wonder what would happen if one did this but including say 1980-2011 instead of just 2000-2014

Written by Karlabos on 22.06.2016 at 22:02

I wonder what would happen if one did this but including say 1980-2011 instead of just 2000-2014

I second this wish. Moose, how about it?