Written by Erik M. on 09.08.2014 at 17:52
Most people (on MS at least) that I've seen discussing this topic seem to need multiple spins when it comes to judging music properly. Replay value is also important. When I can play an album over and over again and still enjoy it, it's a sign that the replay value, for me, is high. That also influences my opinion on the album.

Don't say most. You should discuss with other people before saying things like "vast minority". I know after the first spin if I'm am going to go back to an album or not. I don't need to go back to it to know if I'm going to go back to it. When I reviewed full time on another site, I needed three-five listens, tops. For the same reasons Marcel stated.

Written by Erik M. on 09.08.2014 at 17:58

You said it applies to "most people", so indeed not everyone. But is that really a fact? Nope, I don't think you can state that as a fact.

It's been my observation that almost everyone will be able to construct an opinion based on one listen of something. To me it is a fact. I also believe that initial listen is the most important in constructing an opinion. This idea of needing X amount of listens to "grasp" is a conscious, self imposed rule that is not in keeping with the idea of subjective taste.

Written by Marcel Hubregtse on 09.08.2014 at 17:50

I only do that for finetuning, revisiting some details ilke 'hell, they stole this riff from so an so'. The 5 spins doesn't affect my initial response to the album.
After the first spin I already rate it aand have most of the review ready.

Erik, your problem is that when you first listen to aa new album you don't give it your full attention. Doing other stuff while listening to a new album is like doing other stuff while watching a movie. No wonder you need multiple listens to grasp an album.

Ah I see. That clears it up then.

Maybe it's true about giving it my full attention. But I like combining it with other stuff since I only have so much free time. But as I said, I think replay value is important as well. After all, when I like an album, I like to spin it multiple times. It's not my goal to listen to as much new music as possible all the time.

Written by Ilham on 09.08.2014 at 18:02

Don't say most. You should discuss with other people before saying things like "vast minority". I know after the first spin if I'm am going to go back to an album or not. I don't need to go back to it to know if I'm going to go back to it. When I reviewed full time on another site, I needed three-five listens, tops. For the same reasons Marcel stated.

Wait, I'm doing the same as Joe here, saying "most people", but I call it an obversation, he calls it a fact. I also often know if I'm going to give an album a 2nd spin or not after one listen. Doesn't mean I have a proper opinion on the album, but an impression. Impression =/= opinion.

Written by Erik M. on 09.08.2014 at 18:09
Impression =/= opinion.

It's still just as valid. It's music, it's not a scientific experiment.

Erik, getting tied up in semantics in order to obfuscate people's points

Written by [user id=4365] on 09.08.2014 at 18:03

It's been my observation that almost everyone will be able to construct an opinion based on one listen of something. To me it is a fact. I also believe that initial listen is the most important in constructing an opinion. This idea of needing X amount of listens to "grasp" is a conscious, self imposed rule that is not in keeping with the idea of subjective taste.

I've seen lots of people state they "need" multiple spins to judge an album. For example, this album seems to have that effect on the majority. The term "grower" is used for that, as you know. And it's a term often used at that. Doesn't make it a fact of course, but my point is that people in general often refer to a certain album as a "grower".

Written by Erik M. on 09.08.2014 at 17:52

Written by Ilham on 09.08.2014 at 17:29

I hate to come in like that and say "yes I agree a 100% with Joe" like a puppy dog, but I have to. "You, Alex and Marcel are in the vast minority of people who can apparently "fully grasp" an album in just one spin". Don't come up with generalisations like that Erik. If you paid more attention when you listened to music maybe you wouldn't need five spins to "grasp" an album.

Most people (on MS at least) that I've seen discussing this topic seem to need multiple spins when it comes to judging music properly. Replay value is also important. When I can play an album over and over again and still enjoy it, it's a sign that the replay value, for me, is high. That also influences my opinion on the album.

I need to dispel a myth here that's been bothering me for awhile. You can figure out an album's "replay value" from a single listen, perhaps more reliably than listening to it over and over again. You want to listen to it over and over again based on your initial impression primarily, not out of some need for developing an objective rating or some need to "test to see if I like keep liking it". You see something of substance to the album that makes it compelling. Most of the time I only give shitty albums another listen if other members on MS/other metalheads really like it, although I don't really find the replay value changes when I do it. Maybe I'll understand more of where they are coming from, but I don't find I listen to the album more afterwards as a result.

Written by Erik M. on 09.08.2014 at 18:04

Ah I see. That clears it up then.

Maybe it's true about giving it my full attention. But I like combining it with other stuff since I only have so much free time. But as I said, I think replay value is important as well. After all, when I like an album, I like to spin it multiple times. It's not my goal to listen to as much new music as possible all the time.

I didn't realize you did other stuff while listening to new music, but that makes perfect sense given your stance on re-listening and whatnot. It just takes you a little longer to get the full impression of an album because it doesn't get your full attention. It's not a bad thing, it just clarifies a lot for me.

Written by Ilham on 09.08.2014 at 18:11

It's still just as valid. It's music, it's not a scientific experiment.

What I meant is that to me there's a difference between an impression and an opinion. One spin gives me an impression on an album, in other words tells me whether I like it enough to re-visit it, but I wouldn't be able to properly judge it, as in describing it or being able to say which tracks are my favourites, for example.

Written by Erik M. on 09.08.2014 at 18:15
I've seen lots of people state they "need" multiple spins to judge an album. For example, this album seems to have that effect on the majority.

Letting an album grow on you doesn't mean your initial impression is less valid than the one you're going to have after the tenth listen. If you can't trust your first impressions, I can't imagine how complicated it must be for you to discover music and to find the time to do so. Which after a while could also make you sheltered and afraid of trying out new things. Take some risks.

Written by Erik M. on 09.08.2014 at 18:20
What I meant is that to me there's a difference between an impression and an opinion. One spin gives me an impression on an album, in other words tells me whether I like it enough to re-visit it, but I wouldn't be able to properly judge it, as in describing it or being able to say which tracks are my favourites, for example.

Fair enough, this is the most sense you made since the beginning of this discussion .

Written by Erik M. on 09.08.2014 at 18:15


I've seen lots of people state they "need" multiple spins to judge an album. For example, this album seems to have that effect on the majority. The term "grower" is used for that, as you know. And it's a term often used at that. Doesn't make it a fact of course, but my point is that people in general often refer to a certain album as a "grower".

Exceptions that prove the rule perhaps. I've encountered about two albums in my whole life where multiple listens have drastically changed my opinion. Most of those comments are "grower" comments which always strikes as familiarity taking over / people forcing themselves to like something. Not something I hugely subscribe to.

Written by Ilham on 09.08.2014 at 18:22

Letting an album grow on you doesn't mean your initial impression is less valid than the one you're going to have after the tenth listen. If you can't trust your first impressions, I can't imagine how complicated it must be for you to discover music and to find the time to do so. Which after a while could also make you sheltered and afraid of trying out new things. Take some risks.

Sheltered and afraid of trying out new things? You might be blowing this thing out of proportion a bit.

All I'm saying is that to ME a first spin, and thus impression, isn't enough to give a proper opinion on it. Plus that I've seen people often state the same thing, so I really wonder what exactly the problem is here. Well, the "attention factor" surely is important and indeed definitely could make a difference for me. Not denying that.

Written by Ilham on 09.08.2014 at 18:24

Fair-enough, this is the most sense you made since the beginning of this discussion .

What are you talking about? I make sense all the time.

Written by Diverge on 09.08.2014 at 18:15

I need to dispel a myth here that's been bothering me for awhile. You can figure out an album's "replay value" from a single listen, perhaps more reliably than listening to it over and over again. You want to listen to it over and over again based on your initial impression primarily, not out of some need for developing an objective rating or some need to "test to see if I like keep liking it". You see something of substance to the album that makes it compelling. Most of the time I only give shitty albums another listen if other members on MS/other metalheads really like it, although I don't really find the replay value changes when I do it. Maybe I'll understand more of where they are coming from, but I don't find I listen to the album more afterwards as a result.

So replay value is better figured out after one spin than more spins? Sorry, I fail to see the logic here. That's a contradiction since an album with high replay value proves that multiple listens don't make you like the album less, so that it's still enjoyable after a lot of spins. After just one or two spins I can't see how you would find out whether the replay value is high or not.

Written by Alex F on 09.08.2014 at 18:18

I didn't realize you did other stuff while listening to new music, but that makes perfect sense given your stance on re-listening and whatnot. It just takes you a little longer to get the full impression of an album because it doesn't get your full attention. It's not a bad thing, it just clarifies a lot for me.

Well, I listen to music when I go to work and back (by train and bike) and at home in the evening. But yeah, as I said, the attention thing indeed is a pretty big factor in "grasping" the music, even though I'm not sure if that's all there is to it.

Written by [user id=4365] on 09.08.2014 at 18:29

Exceptions that prove the rule perhaps. I've encountered about two albums in my whole life where multiple listens have drastically changed my opinion. Most of those comments are "grower" comments which always strikes as familiarity taking over / people forcing themselves to like something. Not something I hugely subscribe to.

In case of the recent Empyrium, the first few listens really underwhelmed me and after that I came to like it a lot more. Reading the comments on the album page made me realize more people had the same experience.

Written by Erik M. on 09.08.2014 at 18:32
Sheltered and afraid of trying out new things? You might be blowing this thing out of proportion a bit.
All I'm saying is that to ME a first spin, and thus impression, isn't enough to give a proper opinion on it. Plus that I've seen people often state the same thing, so I really wonder what exactly the problem is here. Well, the "attention factor" surely is important and indeed definitely could make a difference for me. Not denying that.
What are you talking about? I make sense all the time.

I didn't say you were, re-read that sentence. I meant it could make you become sheltered and afraid, if in anticipation of all the effort - having to listen to an album five times - you might feel discouraged and pass on trying out new things. I am not blowing anything out of proportion. There is no fuss made, you said something, I (and other people) replied.
I won't deny it happens to me for certain albums though.
Yeah the attention factor is the key.
But no, in the first posts you didn't, sorry .

Written by Ilham on 09.08.2014 at 18:48

I didn't say you were, re-read that sentence. I meant it could make you become sheltered and afraid, if in anticipation of all the effort - having to listen to an album five times - you might feel discouraged and pass on trying out new things. I am not blowing anything out of proportion. There is no fuss made, you said something, I (and other people) replied.
I won't deny it happens to me for certain albums though.
Yeah the attention factor is the key to all this.
But no, in the first posts you didn't, sorry .

Oh yeah, my bad. Posting like crazy so didn't read it well enough.

And whether my posts make sense to you or not is irrelevant since I only was stating how I judge music, not how others do it. Except for the thing I said about reviewers needing more spins to judge music as well, because in all fairness I can't say a thing like that. Aside from that I still stand by everything I said.

Btw, I feel sorry for zarahuztra... we took over his list.

Written by Erik M. on 09.08.2014 at 18:58
And whether my posts make sense to you or not is irrelevant since I only was stating how I judge music, not how others do it. Except for the thing I said about reviewers needing more spins to judge music as well, because in all fairness I can't say a thing like that. Aside from that I still stand by everything I said.

Yeah no problem, can't imagine how crazy this last hour must have been for you haha. Hey, usually, when I go out of my way to include this ugly ":P" or any other emot it means it's humour, it was my way of saying that I could finally understand your point. I don't write off people's opinions as nonsense when they happen to go against my way.
Yeah, poor guy, that OP.

Written by Ilham on 09.08.2014 at 19:01

Yeah no problem, can't imagine how crazy this last hour must have been for you haha. Hey, usually, when I go out of my way to include this ugly ":P" or any other emot it means it's humour, it was my way of saying that I could finally understand your point. I don't write off people's opinions as nonsense when they happen to go against my way.
Yeah, poor guy, that OP.

Yeah, every time I refreshed the page I had like 1-3 new notification during the last hour or so.

But okay, good to know this discussion has ended, more or less. (yeah, this emoticon kind of sucks, even though I somehow regularly use it...)

Written by Erik M. on 09.08.2014 at 18:59

Btw, I feel sorry for zarahuztra... we took over his list.

thats ok

Written by zarahuztra on 09.08.2014 at 22:54

thats ok

Well, if anything, it's popular as fuck now.

-1 for the debate taking place in the comments.

Written by deadone on 15.08.2014 at 09:25
But I guess I'm still wrong as Joe, Alex Fenger, Marcel et al have already decreed the entire human race must make an opinion after a single listen.

This is just getting ridiculous. You play this victim card/me against the world (of MS) across different threads! It's beyond annoying and honestly pretty pathetic. Once again, people have stated their opinion - that it doesn't require more than one listen to grasp an album - and others have stated they believe it does. Nothing more, nothing less.

As others have pointed out, maybe you wouldn't have as hard a time grasping an album if you listened to music in the same way you watch a movie. Or maybe it comes down to you lacking the skill to comprehend things aurally. Not everyone learns by simply listening, and maybe more visual learners have trouble grasping new music immediately. Speculating/guessing, not assuming of course.

*facepalm* What an inferiority complex...

The discussion ended on a positive note. And during the whole time neither Erik, nor I, nor anyone else resorted to something like that. Why does it have to re-start with personal accusations? Is that really necessary? Instead of actually discussing the matter at hand, people will only reply to the gratuitous shots you take at them. I mean I can't understand the logic. And that comes from someone who supposedly "likes debate". You don't like what comes out of the debate, you like the debate, and by debate, I mean the convoluted way of discharging your anger, aggression and fear in the form of forum posts.

Written by deadone on 15.08.2014 at 09:25

I definitely need a few spins to judge an album on average. Seldom do I like anything on first listen. Though I can usually dislike something on a 1 listen but even then it could be a couple of listens.

For example new Morbus Chron took a few listens to figure out I didn't like it.

I'm still plugging away at new Mastodon too.

Well, after 1 spin I can most of the time tell whether I like it enough to give it more spins. But yeah, sometimes I have the same experience, as in: not liking something after more listens, or vice versa.

Quote:

I agree with this too.

Watching a movie is an active task. Your primary focus is watching the movie. Others tasks like shoveling food into one's mouth is secondary and almost subconsious.


Like Eric I listen to music at work or at home and do other stuff whilst I'm listening to tunes. And there's other factors such as my mood, my health, whom I'm with (not easy listening to new tunes with a family), interuptions etc.

I also like to get to know the ins and outs of an album and know it's every nuance. That takes time and many repeated listens.


But I guess I'm still wrong as Joe, Alex Fenger, Marcel et al have already decreed the entire human race must make an opinion after a single listen.

Yeah, there's a big difference in how much I pay attention to movies and music. That doesn't mean I like music less, but it's simply nice to combine it with other stuff. Actually I'd assume most people do this, since not everyone has loads of free time so that they can spend hours a day just listening to music without doing anything else besides it (I sure as hell haven't). Fine by me if people do that, but not me. Also, multiple spins are a necessity for me when it comes judging the replay value. If I don't enjoy an album anymore after 5-10 spins, I would never consider it a masterpiece. All my 10's are albums that I've listened to many times (most of them 20+). I pretty much always listen to music alone (except when I'm in the train to work and back), because I can't enjoy it if I know someone else might not enjoy it as much as I do. So it's highly personal for me. In any case, it seems we totally agree on this then. Or rather: we judge music the same way.